Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate SNS Reeal in diretta: storia di un esproprio - Notizie, informazioni e commenti

Quante SNS T1 + Lt2 Nominale Sub oggetto del furto avete in portafoglio

  • 10k

    Votes: 19 12,8%
  • 20k

    Votes: 8 5,4%
  • 30k

    Votes: 3 2,0%
  • 50k

    Votes: 39 26,2%
  • 75k

    Votes: 6 4,0%
  • 100k

    Votes: 18 12,1%
  • 150k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 200k

    Votes: 13 8,7%
  • 300k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 500k+

    Votes: 9 6,0%

  • Total voters
    149
Uno studio condotto da Cushman & Wakefield Inc. commissionato dal governo olandese trovato SNS Property Finance si troverebbe ad affrontare ulteriori perdite di ben € 3200000000 in un scenario peggiore, il ministero delle Finanze ha detto nel suo decreto.

In un scenario di base, le perdite sono stati stimati a € 2400000000, 1,4 miliardi di euro in più di quanto previsto da Ernst & Young in uno studio separato, la banca centrale ha detto in una lettera il 24 gennaio.

"Perché il ministro si basano esclusivamente sulla relazione Cushman & Wakefield - perché non un media" Schonewille ha detto. "Obbligazionisti subordinati dovranno mano in circa 1 miliardo di euro, una perdita che potrebbe anche non esistere."
Cushman & Wakefield ha utilizzato un fattore di sconto rispetto al valore dei crediti finanziari di proprietà del 7 per cento, avvocati ha detto, citando una lettera di SNS Reaal al ministero delle finanze del 13 gennaio. SNS Reaal ha detto un fattore 4 per cento al 5 per cento sarebbe più appropriato.

Una variazione di un punto percentuale del tasso di sconto può comportare una modifica dei dati delle perdite attese di circa 600 milioni di euro, SNS ha detto nella lettera, che è stato anche pubblicato sul sito web del quotidiano olandese Het Financieele Dagblad oggi.
 
Ultima modifica di un moderatore:
Ho notato un certo pessimismo oggi all'interno del forum, certo che fare le cassandre secondo me è un atteggiamento perdente. Siamo in tanti ad essere stati 'derubati', e non conta tanto l'interesse dei media, ma il riconoscimento di un risarcimento equo da parte dei tribunali.(non lo zero di ----). In olanda hanno la legge fatta a giugno che gli ha permesso di fare questo casino, però quando le cose vengono fatte in maniera così grossolana e arrogante, un appiglio si trova non vi preoccupate (per questo confido nei nostri legali). Noi non siamo imbecilli siamo stati sfigati e tanti di quelli che investono in altre sub, che ora si pensano scaltri, avrebbero potuto trovarsi nelle nosre condizioni. Meditate gente ... meditate


:up:
 
Ho notato un certo pessimismo oggi all'interno del forum, certo che fare le cassandre secondo me è un atteggiamento perdente. Siamo in tanti ad essere stati 'derubati', e non conta tanto l'interesse dei media, ma il riconoscimento di un risarcimento equo da parte dei tribunali.(non lo zero di ----). In olanda hanno la legge fatta a giugno che gli ha permesso di fare questo casino, però quando le cose vengono fatte in maniera così grossolana e arrogante, un appiglio si trova non vi preoccupate (per questo confido nei nostri legali). Noi non siamo imbecilli siamo stati sfigati e tanti di quelli che investono in altre sub, che ora si pensano scaltri, avrebbero potuto trovarsi nelle nosre condizioni. Meditate gente ... meditate

Personalmente:
Senso di impotenza
Lotta impari contro uno che è ministro e pure capo eurogruppo
 
I tweet in tempo reale del direttore di VEB
twitter.com/JMSlagter

Ne riporto alcuni con la pessima traduzione italiana, in ordine temporale inverso (si parte dal basso)

Interessante: Avvocatura dello Stato afferma che la compensazione dei diritti di esproprio #snsreaal ancora sconosciuti. Quindi non necessariamente azzerare.

Notizie dal Ministero delle Finanze: la Commissione europea fa Giovedi prossimo la pronuncia di aiuti di Stato a SNS.

Mr. Tim Stevens, anche a nome dello Stato, spiega scala fallimento. "E 'difficile, tutto o niente."

Paese Avvocato: il ministro ha fatto esattamente ciò che la legge prescrive di intervento. # snsreaal

Avvocato Paese: è stata una scelta tra fallimento e salvataggio (nazionalizzazione) # snsreaal . Nel primo caso, non vi era alcun valore residuo

Sostenitori privati ​​convertire tutte le note E500 in unità di fondo. Questo potrebbe essere utilizzato per l'iniezione SNS

Mr. Wendelgelst: perché non guardare alla ristrutturazione del debito # snsreaal ? Come è successo in Islanda.

Wendelgelst Avvocato: ciò che manca nella decisione di giustificazione è buona per espropriare s obbligazioni subordinate "a fianco delle azioni # snsreaal

Lakeman piacere di ascoltare.

Lakeman: "I miei clienti hanno quote nel mese di gennaio # snsreaal . acquistati Non sulla mia raccomandazione è "

Lakeman: nel mese di ottobre 2012 è stato di solvibilità # snsreaal già insufficiente. Il Ministro ha quattro mesi indugiato.

"Quando ho sentito passività (crediti) sono stati espropriati, mi sono ricordato buco nero di antimateria". Lakeman in forma!

@ Hidde Mulder penso che la proposta di compensazione viene dopo sentenza Consiglio di Stato. Poi la difesa scritta. Solo allora si siede. Quindi mesi.

Mr. Lieverse: obbligazioni subordinate di espropriazione non era l'intenzione del legislatore. È scelto di aspettare e sviluppo europeo.

Avvocato Kitty Lieverse in # snsreaal : Intervento non fornisce alcuna base per i debiti espropriare (presenti attività) - i sinistri.

VEB e due altri partiti principali si sono riuniti ore e mezza di conversazione in # snsreaal . Ora una serie di soggetti che ottengono tutti i quindici minuti.

Tzankova: espropriazione # snsreaal in violazione del diritto internazionale.

Prof. Ianika Tzankova piano per quattro hedge fund # snsreaal .

Il signor Lange, a nome dei "obbligazionisti italiani alla parola # snsreaal
Wie we zijn - Dirk Lange
 
Altro liveblog realtime, molto dettagliato
Browser accepteert geen cookies | Het Financieele Dagblad

Bancassurance gruppo SNS è stata nazionalizzata all'inizio di febbraio. Il Consiglio di Stato tratta i ricorsi di oggi contro la nazionalizzazione. Seguire il caso attraverso questo blog in tempo reale.

Ecco un breve riassunto degli eventi:

VEB, il Ministro è autorizzato ad espropriare gli effetti, ma non di tali richieste di risarcimento danni, espropriati obbligazioni SNS Bank non legalmente subordinate
Avvocato William Schonewille scoprire che relazione Cushman & Wakefield è il ruolo cruciale svolto anche mentre c'era una grande differenza con l'altro report di Ernst & Young
Avvocato Dirk Lange che agisce per conto di danneggiati obbligazionisti italiani e dice che sembra che si tratta di un obiettivo in sé era subordinato obbligazionisti di espropriare
Avvocato Tzankova quattro hedge fund, dice il nazionalizzazione ostacolo alla libera circolazione dei capitali, gli avvocati della difesa per eseguire più
Pieter Lakeman dice che la maggior parte delle banche hanno beneficiato della nazionalizzazione in quanto il sistema di garanzia dei depositi non è in vigore. Egli ritiene che Dijsselbloem troppo tardi con l'espropriazione
Le persone lamentano anche il tempo disponibile per la revisione della esproprio abbia luogo, sostenendo tempo insufficiente per i documenti per valutare
Procuratore Eric Daalder dice che non c'è altra possibilità di esproprio dei SNS; Dijsselbloem ministro ha appena eseguito la legge.
Secondo il Procuratore di Stato CVC offerto abbastanza soldi per essere in grado di offrire una soluzione. Se lo Stato o su proposta è stata discussa, questo ha avuto il contribuente costo 0900000000 € a € 1,3 miliardi in più
US Attorney Tim Stevens nota che le obbligazioni subordinate veramente 'subordinati'
 
Ultima modifica:
Chi è questo Lakeman
http://www.ftm.nl/author/pieter-lakeman.aspx
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Retroscena sulla possibiità di salvataggio da parte delle altre banche olandesi
http://www.ftm.nl/followleader/piet...epalingen-in-het-onteigeningsbesluit-sns.aspx
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Testo del riscorso di Lakeman http://www.sobi.nl/pleidooi-pieter-lakeman-inzake-sns-reaal/
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Cookies op de websites van RTL Nederland

Jeroen Dijsselbloem Minister (Finance) had four months earlier to intervene at SNS. That said Pieter Lakeman of the Foundation Research Business Information (Sobi) Friday before the Council of State, where he performed on behalf of two misled investors.

According Lakeman, best known for his role in the downfall of DSB where he called for a bank run, had Dijsselbloem hundreds if not thousands of investors a good sling can save. ,, But he had evidently no appetite.'' His own clients bought more shares on 11 January. ,, Not in my opinion also,'' joked Lakeman.

The nationalization was not necessary according Lakeman. The government had the capital of SNS without expropriation can strengthen, he said. The reason for this is not selected, will be of a political nature''.

==================================
http://www.refdag.nl/nieuws/economie/lakeman_dijsselbloem_greep_te_laat_in_bij_sns_1_715586

According Lakeman, best known for his role in the downfall of DSB where he called for a bank run, had Dijsselbloem hundreds if not thousands of investors a good sling can save. "But he had evidently no appetite." His own clients bought more shares on 11 January. "Not in my opinion also," joked Lakeman.

The nationalization was not necessary according Lakeman. The government had the capital of SNS without expropriation can strengthen, he said. The reason for this is not selected "will be of a political nature".

Legal basis

For important parts of the decision of Dijsselbloem to SNS to nationalize was no legal basis. That said lawyer Pieter van der Korst Friday on behalf of the Association (VEB) to the Council of State.

According to Van der Korst has decided to expropriation under the "contestable outcomes" of an investigation into the extent of the problems in the real estate branch of SNS. He called nationalization "not proportional" and suggested that he failed all other possibilities sufficiently investigated.

The lawyer VEB also complained about the procedure. He suggested that misled investors after the expropriation decision, exactly two weeks ago, far too little time in which to prepare their defense. Furthermore, they have not had access to all relevant documents. The Council of State hears Friday the objections of several hundred parties have appealed against the expropriation decision. The country will advocate on behalf of the Minister's decision to defend. The VEB acts in his own words on behalf of more than 5,300 duped investors. "That number is growing every hour," said Van der Korst.

No need

Dijsselbloem has been overstepped gone through the subordinated bondholders of SNS to expropriate. Lawyer argued that 't Hart Friday behalf Hoorneman Bankers Court in the State Council.

According to 't Hart was the expropriation of bondholders not necessary to the stability of the financial system. As an expropriation legally may not extend beyond what is necessary, according to him, the Minister may decide not. The argument Dijsselbloem that the holders of subordinated bonds conscious risk taken, according to 't Hart irrelevant. "There was no need for the bondholders to expropriate. It was most politically desirable, not more than that. "

The counsel also placed questioned the role of De Nederlandsche Bank (DNB). Who gave SNS on 23 December permission to repay on participation certificates worth 116 million euros. Incomprehensible, given the major concerns that DNB one month later revealed to have the capital position of SNS and also led to the nationalization, says' t Hart.
 
Ultima modifica:
Il testo di Lakeman preso dal suo sito e tradotto in inglese
Pieter Lakeman advies en financieel onderzoek – SOBI – Stichting Onderzoek Bedrijfs Informatie | Pleidooi Pieter Lakeman inzake SNS Reaal

ADVOCATES NOTES

Pieter Lakeman,

against the Decision of 1 February 2013 of the Minister of Finance on the expropriation of securities and assets SNS REAAL NV and SNS Bank NV

In the appeal filed by me are four statements included:

1) The expropriation of the shares is carried out too late.

2) The expropriation of the claims of shareholders of SNS is against the law and expropriation of individual liability is at all possible.

3) Through expropriation of shareholders and creditor claims are disadvantaged and expropriation must be destroyed.

4) There was no need for expropriation of claims against real-SNS.

For explanation of Theorem 2, I refer to Mr. argument. And Mr. Wolters. Van den Berg Höcker lawyers. The other propositions I will explain myself.

This is a battle of 700 small parties against two very large forces: DNB and the Minister of Finance, which also had a large information gap and timing, major procedural advantages. The 700 are in the same boat and are economically a kind of collective. They are with a pen stretch of their joint assets cured. For this reason I would ask you all to today's arguments can be seen as speaking on behalf of all those whose position could be strengthened by those arguments.

Why chose expropriation?

Nout Wellink said once that a bank fails of passage. He put his theory into practice because neatly under his eyes open DSB bankrupt and has put the ax in SNS.

The stability of the financial system under conditions indeed maintained by the bankruptcy of a bank. The bankruptcy of DSB Bank (which I previously have organized a bank run), the stability of the financial system is not compromised.

Under the deposit guarantee scheme, the banks in the bankruptcy of DSB only € 600 million loss, which could be easily collected. For customers of DSB Bank was bankrupt a blessing. Scheringa offered € 26 million compensation but trustees have already pledged € 500 million.

SNS is more than 10 times the size of DSB Bank. According to the DNB, the deposit guarantee scheme participating banks (mainly Rabobank, ING and ABN Amro) a failure of SNS € 35 billion must make available, then 30 billion at SNS can recover and € 5.3 billion loss. That is, given their solvency, irresponsible. DNB and the minister have overlooked that banks € 30 billion after a number of years from the bankruptcy estate can get back and definitely another € 5 billion loss of interest would suffer. The participating banks would in bankruptcy of SNS in total some € 10 billion loss. (They have now 1 billion contributed and are thus the biggest profiteers of this expropriation).

The core argument of the Minister, that the bankruptcy of SNS the stability of the financial system would jeopardize, is therefore entirely correct, although this is largely caused by the operation of the deposit guarantee scheme. Until this system in its current form will Rabobank, ING and ABN Amro never go bankrupt. Indeed, when one of the three bankrupt, go into the other two.

Expropriation is not necessary

The main argument of the Minister for the expropriation of assets and liabilities separate proceeding, the stability of the financial system. This stability is in principle not served with expropriation of rotten parts of the system. On the contrary, by expropriation can be relaxed atmosphere created in the boardrooms of financial players. By expropriation is also the gut feeling of the investing public (that bankers only collect profits and losses for taxpayers leave) facilitated. The social consequences of expropriation in themselves a threat to the stability of the financial system.

The stability of the system or, indirectly, threatened by the power shortage in SNS. This power deficit is however not smaller by expropriation but only by the capital injections after the expropriation. However, there is no motive, nor put forward, to the capital injection after expropriation to do.

The Minister may well give injections without expropriation, by subscribing to a share issue. The classic argument against it is that such emission yields nothing because nobody wants to enroll. That would under these circumstances is precisely the state desired result: they would only register (which also follows logically from its position that the current shares are worth nothing) and so may be it capital shortfall at SNS elegantly solve ie without existing shareholders to dispose of their total assets.

No motive for expropriation of claims

Expropriation may only benefit from the stability of the financial system.

Expropriation of claims is not aimed at maintaining the stability of the financial system but on increasing gains by the state for subsequent sale of the shares SNS and therefore in conflict with the law.

The minister has only one motive invoked to no equity issue: to make existing shareholders could benefit from the company's recovery. This is clearly not intended by the Minister. Shareholders have any chance of recovering from their property taken away and therefore their claims against the company expropriated. The rationale behind this desire is darkness and will therefore be of a political nature. Especially since the shareholders already amply punished by Nout Wellink them since time immemorial with ineffectual management has saddled. Shareholders should obviously be punished twice and incompetent management should be rewarded with a form of indirect liability for indemnification.

Minister shows incorrect understanding of the value of shares

With regard to the valuation of shares stores the Minister the shelf completely wrong. He looks apparently only visible to the intrinsic value of shares that would be negative (that is according to the latest audited financial statements incidentally still positive). The visible intrinsic value is only a part of the value. There is no listed company, the value of which is equal to the apparent intrinsic value.

Expropriation late

The letter of DNB from 2 October 2012 shows that the solvency of SNS was already inadequate. The Minister then had to intervene directly, either with a public share issue, either by expropriation. The minister, however, has waited four months before, without his making any motive for it. He just did not feel like he has informed the House. After early October, hundreds of thousands of shares purchased by shareholders who had confidence in the financial system, in DNB and the Minister (also Old Middendorp and Stege). That trust has been betrayed and that shareholders have damage count as direct result of the procrastination of the Minister. This dawdling also has a bad influence on the stability of the financial system.

I request your college with your opinion on the validity of the actual expropriation of the claims by shareholders against SNS also take account of the reprehensible manner in which the Minister since October 2, 2012 has acted, but obviously with the total lack of valid reasoning and due to conflict with the law.

Pieter Lakeman
 
Può essere interessante la linea di opposizione pubblicata dal noto consulente finanziario olandese Pieter Lakeman, che tutela due investitori in Olanda
Dal suo sito Pieter Lakeman advies en financieel onderzoek – SOBI – Stichting Onderzoek Bedrijfs Informatie | Pleidooi Pieter Lakeman inzake SNS Reaal

Tradotto in inglese con google

ADVOCATES NOTES

Pieter Lakeman,

against the Decision of 1 February 2013 of the Minister of Finance on the expropriation of securities and assets SNS REAAL NV and SNS Bank NV

In the appeal filed by me are four statements included:

1) The expropriation of the shares is carried out too late.

2) The expropriation of the claims of shareholders of SNS is against the law and expropriation of individual liability is at all possible.

3) Through expropriation of shareholders and creditor claims are disadvantaged and expropriation must be destroyed.

4) There was no need for expropriation of claims against real-SNS.

For explanation of Theorem 2, I refer to Mr. argument. And Mr. Wolters. Van den Berg Höcker lawyers. The other propositions I will explain myself.

This is a battle of 700 small parties against two very large forces: DNB and the Minister of Finance, which also had a large information gap and timing, major procedural advantages. The 700 are in the same boat and are economically a kind of collective. They are with a pen stretch of their joint assets cured. For this reason I would ask you all to today's arguments can be seen as speaking on behalf of all those whose position could be strengthened by those arguments.

Why chose expropriation?

Nout Wellink said once that a bank fails of passage. He put his theory into practice because neatly under his eyes open DSB bankrupt and has put the ax in SNS.

The stability of the financial system under conditions indeed maintained by the bankruptcy of a bank. The bankruptcy of DSB Bank (which I previously have organized a bank run), the stability of the financial system is not compromised.

Under the deposit guarantee scheme, the banks in the bankruptcy of DSB only € 600 million loss, which could be easily collected. For customers of DSB Bank was bankrupt a blessing. Scheringa offered € 26 million compensation but trustees have already pledged € 500 million.

SNS is more than 10 times the size of DSB Bank. According to the DNB, the deposit guarantee scheme participating banks (mainly Rabobank, ING and ABN Amro) a failure of SNS € 35 billion must make available, then 30 billion at SNS can recover and € 5.3 billion loss. That is, given their solvency, irresponsible. DNB and the minister have overlooked that banks € 30 billion after a number of years from the bankruptcy estate can get back and definitely another € 5 billion loss of interest would suffer. The participating banks would in bankruptcy of SNS in total some € 10 billion loss. (They have now 1 billion contributed and are thus the biggest profiteers of this expropriation).

The core argument of the Minister, that the bankruptcy of SNS the stability of the financial system would jeopardize, is therefore entirely correct, although this is largely caused by the operation of the deposit guarantee scheme. Until this system in its current form will Rabobank, ING and ABN Amro never go bankrupt. Indeed, when one of the three bankrupt, go into the other two.

Expropriation is not necessary

The main argument of the Minister for the expropriation of assets and liabilities separate proceeding, the stability of the financial system. This stability is in principle not served with expropriation of rotten parts of the system. On the contrary, by expropriation can be relaxed atmosphere created in the boardrooms of financial players. By expropriation is also the gut feeling of the investing public (that bankers only collect profits and losses for taxpayers leave) facilitated. The social consequences of expropriation in themselves a threat to the stability of the financial system.

The stability of the system or, indirectly, threatened by the power shortage in SNS. This power deficit is however not smaller by expropriation but only by the capital injections after the expropriation. However, there is no motive, nor put forward, to the capital injection after expropriation to do.

The Minister may well give injections without expropriation, by subscribing to a share issue. The classic argument against it is that such emission yields nothing because nobody wants to enroll. That would under these circumstances is precisely the state desired result: they would only register (which also follows logically from its position that the current shares are worth nothing) and so may be it capital shortfall at SNS elegantly solve ie without existing shareholders to dispose of their total assets.

No motive for expropriation of claims

Expropriation may only benefit from the stability of the financial system.

Expropriation of claims is not aimed at maintaining the stability of the financial system but on increasing gains by the state for subsequent sale of the shares SNS and therefore in conflict with the law.

The minister has only one motive invoked to no equity issue: to make existing shareholders could benefit from the company's recovery. This is clearly not intended by the Minister. Shareholders have any chance of recovering from their property taken away and therefore their claims against the company expropriated. The rationale behind this desire is darkness and will therefore be of a political nature. Especially since the shareholders already amply punished by Nout Wellink them since time immemorial with ineffectual management has saddled. Shareholders should obviously be punished twice and incompetent management should be rewarded with a form of indirect liability for indemnification.

Minister shows incorrect understanding of the value of shares

With regard to the valuation of shares stores the Minister the shelf completely wrong. He looks apparently only visible to the intrinsic value of shares that would be negative (that is according to the latest audited financial statements incidentally still positive). The visible intrinsic value is only a part of the value. There is no listed company, the value of which is equal to the apparent intrinsic value.

Expropriation late

The letter of DNB from 2 October 2012 shows that the solvency of SNS was already inadequate. The Minister then had to intervene directly, either with a public share issue, either by expropriation. The minister, however, has waited four months before, without his making any motive for it. He just did not feel like he has informed the House. After early October, hundreds of thousands of shares purchased by shareholders who had confidence in the financial system, in DNB and the Minister (also Old Middendorp and Stege). That trust has been betrayed and that shareholders have damage count as direct result of the procrastination of the Minister. This dawdling also has a bad influence on the stability of the financial system.

I request your college with your opinion on the validity of the actual expropriation of the claims by shareholders against SNS also take account of the reprehensible manner in which the Minister since October 2, 2012 has acted, but obviously with the total lack of valid reasoning and due to conflict with the law.

Pieter Lakeman
 

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