BUnd, Bond e la bbband degli energumeni canuti VM13 (4 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione feliceanima
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PILU
STATE SERENI
azzo.. I agree, possono essere solo speculazioni sui CDS e allargamento degli spread coi BUND.
Ma io non credo sia solo questo, è un gioco troppo grosso, non è la Volkswagen... Non vai da dire in faccia a gente come Trichet una cosa del genere... Adesso sono schierati i massimi poteri dei banchieri centrali... la fazione angloamericana sta facendo il possibile per allontanarsi dalla gravitazione dell'euro e demolirne la reputazione... Ormai è aperta competizione euro-dollaro.
Comunque questo non è complottismo, sono nozioni di base: chi è che compra i debiti pubblici ? sono le banche e in ultimo le banche centrali, guarda un po'.
L'euro o i paesi non possono saltare solo perchè degli hedge fund stanno speculando. Le sorti dei paesi, Grecia o altri, sono in mano a chi ha il potere di stampare soldi. La Grecia o altri paesi, possono saltare solo se la BCE lo permette. Don't fight the ECB: gli hedge hanno tanti soldi, mentre la BCE ha soldi all'infinito. Chi vince ? Se la BCE vuole, può comprare tutto il debito pubblico di un paese, può comprare titoli greci e squeezare gli hedge che sono short.
Giorni fa su un giornale greco, ho letto dell'esistenza di un piano "segreto" della BCE, per comprare i loro titoli.
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/Sole...ati/2008/12/grecia-spread-bond-tedeschi.shtml
E' stato smentito da Trichet, ha detto che per ora esclude l'acquisto, e per il futuro non si impegna nè a farlo, nè a non farlo.
Se sia segreto non lo so, ma sono certo che i banchieri centrali sanno cose e fanno cose che noi umani nemmeno immaginiamo.
Poi anche queste saranno balle, visto che le banche guadagnano un sacco di soldi comprando titoli greci e periferici vari, e si ricapitalizzano con le tasse dei cittadini.
META che senso ha stampare stampare e poi stampare ancora .. si lo possono fare .. ma poi che valore ha quella carta stampata ? Io direi una cosa tutto e tutti hanno un limite e superato quello stai pur sicuro che ti ritorna tutto indietro con i relativi interessi BCE o FED o BOJ ....
intanto in USA Citi e BOA sono direi ormai andate, perdere ogni giorno percentuali a due cifre con Citi che quota circa 4 $ nonostante il mega aiuto già ricevuto, quanto tempo passerà per essere nazionalizzate con fannie e company ? e a quel punto che credibilità possono avere più le istituzioni finanziarie usa ? che credibilità può avere la FED che ha buttato quasi 300 mld di $ per salvare l'insalvabile ? Continuano a stampare ? bene non si morirà di cancro all'uccello ma di cancro alla min.chia .. alla fine si morirà sempre ... solo questione di tempo ....
Metatarso
Forumer storico
PILU ti ricordo che ogni volta che chiedi un mutuo o un finanziamento, anche quei soldi sono appena creati dal nulla. Però li prendi lo stesso e non ti fanno mica schifo eh ?META che senso ha stampare stampare e poi stampare ancora .. si lo possono fare .. ma poi che valore ha quella carta stampata ? Io direi una cosa tutto e tutti hanno un limite e superato quello stai pur sicuro che ti ritorna tutto indietro con i relativi interessi BCE o FED o BOJ ....
Il denaro prende esistenza quando fai un debito e per il debito pubblico è la stessa cosa... Parlavo del concetto, ovviamente la cosa è più complessa.
vabbè, beccatevi Tremari che fa il giro del mondo
The importance, for Italian bankers, of not knowing English
Italian banks were saved from the US subprime mortgage originated crisis that has become global because they barely speak or understand English confessed the Italian Minister of Economy Giulio Tremonti during an interview published this week in the French newspaper Les Echos and picked up by global news agencies
“Our banks have not suffered much from the sub-prime crisis. Very few of them manage but a few words in English! Therefore their exposure to the toxic assets had a very limited consequence. Today our bankers and banking system are not even asking for assistance, much less rescue packages”, said Tremonti in direct reference to the crisis that blew up during the 2007 northern hemisphere summer.
http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=15776&formato=HTML
Metatarso
Forumer storico
Italian finance minister keeps it in the family... capice?
Spain's finances are in the dock thanks to Standard & Poor's, the spreads on Greek bonds have soared and Germany's economy is set to deteriorate faster than ours, according to the OECD. Suddenly the euro doesn't seem like such a one-way bet.
By Jonathan Russell
Last Updated: 7:28PM GMT 13 Jan 2009
But where is the usual suspect, Italy, in all this euro-doom? Sitting pretty according to its finance minister Giulio Tremonti. The country didn't get involved in the sub-prime crisis and GDP figures could be significantly better than reported.
How do you work this out? "Our banks suffered little from the sub-prime crisis. There are few of them where English is spoken," he told Les Echos newspaper, no doubt not in English.
And GDP? "One should be suspicious of GDP figures …they do not include the informal economy."
The Italian "informal economy"? I'm sure there is another word for that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...inister-keeps-it-in-the-family...-capice.html
"informal economy" Stavolta la facciamo franca con il nero
Spain's finances are in the dock thanks to Standard & Poor's, the spreads on Greek bonds have soared and Germany's economy is set to deteriorate faster than ours, according to the OECD. Suddenly the euro doesn't seem like such a one-way bet.
By Jonathan Russell
Last Updated: 7:28PM GMT 13 Jan 2009
But where is the usual suspect, Italy, in all this euro-doom? Sitting pretty according to its finance minister Giulio Tremonti. The country didn't get involved in the sub-prime crisis and GDP figures could be significantly better than reported.
How do you work this out? "Our banks suffered little from the sub-prime crisis. There are few of them where English is spoken," he told Les Echos newspaper, no doubt not in English.
And GDP? "One should be suspicious of GDP figures …they do not include the informal economy."
The Italian "informal economy"? I'm sure there is another word for that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...inister-keeps-it-in-the-family...-capice.html
"informal economy"
Stavolta la facciamo franca con il nero 
Fleursdumal
फूल की बुराई
però meta vedi quant'è buffone e contaballe 3conti , ma se tutti i bankieri italici o quasi si son fatti le ossa a london come fanno a non sapere l'inglish
non eri tu che ti inkazzavi di ki parlava male degli itagliani quando si era ll'estero?
non eri tu che ti inkazzavi di ki parlava male degli itagliani quando si era ll'estero?
Metatarso
Forumer storico
ma sì che lo so, forse tu non segui, ma è una frecciata che ultimamente sta tirando spesso... indovina perchèperò meta vedi quant'è buffone e contaballe 3conti , ma se tutti i bankieri italici o quasi si son fatti le ossa a london come fanno a non sapere l'inglish
non eri tu che ti inkazzavi di ki parlava male degli itagliani quando si era ll'estero?
il bello è proprio che ora è uscita dall'Italia 
'spetta che metto il cappellino di carta stagnola: è un messaggio che sta mandando ai suoi alleati nella finanza internazionale contro la finanza anglosassone
Metatarso
Forumer storico
fleurs, guarda un po' che leccate ai banchieri europei. Quel gran paraqulo sta andando a fare il tessitore all'estero, e sui giornali italiani questa intervista mica l'ho letta.
PARIS, Jan 13 (Reuters) - The European Central Bank should play a more active role in the supervision of the banking and financial sector, Italian Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti said in a French newspaper interview on Tuesday.
'I think that would be a good idea,' he said in response to a question about increased ECB supervision from Les Echos.
'I am favourable to a single supervisor for all financial institutions. It's impossible to continue to function with a single market and 27 different authorities. There is some resistance but it is absurd to continue like this.'
On Friday, ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet said the ECB was considering an increased supervisory role.
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2009/01/13/afx5911486.html
PARIS, Jan 13 (Reuters) - The European Central Bank should play a more active role in the supervision of the banking and financial sector, Italian Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti said in a French newspaper interview on Tuesday.
'I think that would be a good idea,' he said in response to a question about increased ECB supervision from Les Echos.
'I am favourable to a single supervisor for all financial institutions. It's impossible to continue to function with a single market and 27 different authorities. There is some resistance but it is absurd to continue like this.'
On Friday, ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet said the ECB was considering an increased supervisory role.
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2009/01/13/afx5911486.html
Metatarso
Forumer storico
questo passo sembra fatto apposta per risponderti
CRISI/ Huerta de Soto: La Ricetta? Fermare le banche centrali e liberalizzare l’economia
....
Per metterla in un altro modo, il teorema dell'impossibilità economica del socialismo, scoperta dagli economisti austriaci Ludwig von Mises e Friedrich A. Hayek, è completamente applicabile alle banche centrali in generale. Secondo questo teorema, è impossibile organizzare una società, in termini di economia, basata sugli ordini coercitivi emessi da un ente per la pianificazione, poiché esso non potrà mai ottenere le informazioni necessarie per impartire i suoi ordini in modo coordinato.
...
http://www.ilsussidiario.net/articolo.aspx?articolo=11101
f4f
翠鸟科
ma sì che lo so, forse tu non segui, ma è una frecciata che ultimamente sta tirando spesso... indovina perchè
'spetta che metto il cappellino di carta stagnola: è un messaggio che sta mandando ai suoi alleati nella finanza internazionale contro la finanza anglosassone
gooood morning bbbanda
??
o finanza francese-tedesca?
o russa?
o sino-indiana?
o araba?
quale ???
Madiba
Forumer storico
Buongiorno
HSBC, UBS May Be Liable on Madoff as Fund Custodians (Update4)
Email | Print | A A A
By Alan Katz, Jon Menon and Vernon Silver
Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- HSBC Holdings Plc and UBS AG may be liable for as much as $3.2 billion of losses linked to Bernard Madoff in a dispute over the duties of financial custodians at funds in Luxembourg and Ireland.
At stake is the image of the European fund industry, French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde wrote in a Jan. 12 letter to the European Commission and Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker. European funds’ assets increased 59 percent to 6.8 trillion euros ($9 trillion) over the past six years, partly because rules protecting investors made them attractive.
“If they aren’t required to pay the money, then investor protection doesn’t mean anything and people might as well just invest in offshore funds,” said Isabelle Wekstein-Steg, a lawyer at Wan Avocats in Paris who is representing 10 French retail investors and two institutions that face Madoff-related losses at Luxembourg funds. “UBS didn’t do its job of knowing at all times where the assets were, and the same with HSBC.”
Custodians are charged with oversight of funds, and they manage cash inflows and payments to investors. Those looking to recoup money would have to prove the banks failed to fulfill their duties, according to nine lawyers surveyed by Bloomberg News. HSBC has said it isn’t liable and UBS declined to comment on the issue.
HSBC and UBS’s custodian roles for the Luxembourg funds are limited because they were set up by investors specifically looking to place money with Madoff, said Paul Mousel, co-head of the financial services practice at law firm Arendt & Medernach in Luxembourg. He’s representing both banks.
‘Very Small Role’
“The arrangements that were put in place from the beginning are arrangements that gave to the custodian a very, very, very small role to play, especially regarding the safekeeping of the securities, which allegedly would have been purchased by the investors’ moneys,” Mousel said.
Wekstein-Steg sent a letter on Jan. 9 to Luxembourg’s financial regulator on behalf of her clients requesting that custodians reimburse their investments.
It’s impossible to say whether the custodian has any exposure without seeing the contracts of each fund, according to Julian Randall, a lawyer at Barlow Lyde & Gilbert LLP in London.
“What is clear is that there is unlikely to be any point to suing Madoff himself, and those who have lost money will be looking very hard at anyone, like HSBC, who was close to the action and also has assets,” he said.
Thema International Fund Plc and AA (Alternative Advantage) Plc filed a lawsuit against HSBC on Dec. 19 in Dublin’s High Court, according to court records. The suit charges that HSBC wasn’t able to confirm that assets in the funds were safe.
‘Potential Exposure’
London-based HSBC has $1 billion of “potential exposure” after making loans to institutional clients who invested with Madoff, it has said. Madoff’s firm collapsed last month after he told his sons it was a $50 billion Ponzi scheme, according to a complaint filed by the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation.
HSBC spokesman Patrick McGuinness declined to comment beyond the company’s Dec. 15 statement that it “does not believe its custodial arrangement should be a source of exposure to the group.”
UBS, based in Zurich, has said it doesn’t have material exposure to Madoff’s firm and declined to comment on the liability issue.
What Investors Wanted
“Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC and Madoff’s collective investment vehicles were not on the UBS Wealth Management recommended list as direct investment options,” spokeswoman Tatiana Togni wrote in a Jan. 12 e-mail in response to questions. At the $1.4 billion LuxAlpha Sicav-American Selection fund in Luxembourg, for which UBS is a custodian, “UBS has supported wealthy individuals by establishing a fund structure at their request.”
In a separate custodial issue, a Luxembourg court today ruled that UBS’s local unit must give a French money manager the 30 million euros ($39 million) the bank is holding on its behalf. Oddo & Cie. sold shares of LuxAlpha in November. UBS didn’t send the funds after Madoff’s Dec. 11 arrest because, as custodian, it needed to ensure that any action it took was in the interest of all investors, Mousel said on Jan. 12.
If investors do pry money from the custodians, it would add to the combined $81.7 billion in writedowns and credit losses UBS and HSBC have reported since the start of the global financial crisis in 2007.
UBS rose 1.5 percent to 13.81 Swiss francs ($12.30) at 2:24 p.m. in Zurich. HSBC was down 4.8 percent at 560.5 pence ($8.19) in London.
EU Review
Funds sold in the European Union to retail customers must follow rules on how money can be invested, called the Undertaking for Collective Investment in Transferable Securities, or UCITS. The rules also set out the responsibilities of custodian banks. Liability is determined under national laws in each member state.
The EU said yesterday that it’s reviewing how rules that require EU-regulated mutual funds to safeguard clients’ assets are enforced around the 27-country bloc.
France’s Lagarde said in her letter that not all member states impose the strict obligation for custodians to reimburse investors for assets that were entrusted to them, as France does.
Luxembourg Budget Minister Luc Frieden said French criticism of investor protection rules in the country is unjustified. The laws for custodian banks in Luxembourg are “identical” to those in France, he said.
Ireland, Luxembourg
Luxembourg and Ireland have worked to become distribution centers for investment funds, said Bernard Delbecque, director of economics and research at the European Fund and Asset Management Association. Luxembourg accounted for 30 percent of the overall 5.2 trillion euros of assets in UCITS funds in Europe at the end of September, he said. Ireland ranked third with 11 percent, behind France.
This month, financial regulators in both countries said in separate statements that custodians retain responsibility for monitoring and supervising funds, even if assets are placed with a third party.
Luxembourg’s rules specify that the custodian’s role should be seen as supervisory, “which implies that the depositary must have knowledge at any time of how the assets of the UCI have been invested and where and how these assets are available,” according to a document by the country’s central bank.
UBS is the custodian for LuxAlpha and the $419 million Luxembourg Investment Fund-U.S. Equity Plus, both of which are covered by UCITS. HSBC is the custodian for the $226 million Herald LUX-US Absolute Return Fund and Dublin-based $1.1 billion Thema International Fund Plc. The net asset values are the most recent provided by each fund, according to Bloomberg data.
Redemptions Suspended
The Thema and Herald funds are managed by Bank Medici AG, the Austrian bank founded by Sonja Kohn, whose clients invested $3.2 billion in Madoff funds. The Luxembourg Investment Fund is managed by UBS, and LuxAlpha by Access International Advisors, whose chief executive offer, Thierry Magon de la Villehuchet, was found dead Dec. 23 at his office in New York.
All four funds have suspended redemptions.
Two investors in the Thema fund said they invested in European funds to benefit from the added protection that brought.
Bernd Greisinger, a money manager in Liechtenstein who runs the BG Umbrella Fund for LRI Invest SA, said he chose Thema because it was a European-regulated fund that had to be deposited through a bank. Greisinger put in an order at the end of November to sell Thema shares for $2 million to $3 million. He hasn’t received the funds, he said.
Glenn Gramolini, a Geneva-based manager of Themis MN Fund PLC, which invested in Thema six years ago, said he bought the fund because the money was in the custody of a respected bank.
“Nowhere in the prospectus was it written that the funds would be handed to Madoff,” he said. “He would have been managing the funds. I would never invest in the funds when a manager is a custodian.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Katz in Paris at [email protected]; Vernon Silver in Rome at [email protected]; Jon Menon in London at [email protected]
Last Updated: January 15, 2009 10:54 EST
HSBC, UBS May Be Liable on Madoff as Fund Custodians (Update4)
Email | Print | A A A
By Alan Katz, Jon Menon and Vernon Silver
Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- HSBC Holdings Plc and UBS AG may be liable for as much as $3.2 billion of losses linked to Bernard Madoff in a dispute over the duties of financial custodians at funds in Luxembourg and Ireland.
At stake is the image of the European fund industry, French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde wrote in a Jan. 12 letter to the European Commission and Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker. European funds’ assets increased 59 percent to 6.8 trillion euros ($9 trillion) over the past six years, partly because rules protecting investors made them attractive.
“If they aren’t required to pay the money, then investor protection doesn’t mean anything and people might as well just invest in offshore funds,” said Isabelle Wekstein-Steg, a lawyer at Wan Avocats in Paris who is representing 10 French retail investors and two institutions that face Madoff-related losses at Luxembourg funds. “UBS didn’t do its job of knowing at all times where the assets were, and the same with HSBC.”
Custodians are charged with oversight of funds, and they manage cash inflows and payments to investors. Those looking to recoup money would have to prove the banks failed to fulfill their duties, according to nine lawyers surveyed by Bloomberg News. HSBC has said it isn’t liable and UBS declined to comment on the issue.
HSBC and UBS’s custodian roles for the Luxembourg funds are limited because they were set up by investors specifically looking to place money with Madoff, said Paul Mousel, co-head of the financial services practice at law firm Arendt & Medernach in Luxembourg. He’s representing both banks.
‘Very Small Role’
“The arrangements that were put in place from the beginning are arrangements that gave to the custodian a very, very, very small role to play, especially regarding the safekeeping of the securities, which allegedly would have been purchased by the investors’ moneys,” Mousel said.
Wekstein-Steg sent a letter on Jan. 9 to Luxembourg’s financial regulator on behalf of her clients requesting that custodians reimburse their investments.
It’s impossible to say whether the custodian has any exposure without seeing the contracts of each fund, according to Julian Randall, a lawyer at Barlow Lyde & Gilbert LLP in London.
“What is clear is that there is unlikely to be any point to suing Madoff himself, and those who have lost money will be looking very hard at anyone, like HSBC, who was close to the action and also has assets,” he said.
Thema International Fund Plc and AA (Alternative Advantage) Plc filed a lawsuit against HSBC on Dec. 19 in Dublin’s High Court, according to court records. The suit charges that HSBC wasn’t able to confirm that assets in the funds were safe.
‘Potential Exposure’
London-based HSBC has $1 billion of “potential exposure” after making loans to institutional clients who invested with Madoff, it has said. Madoff’s firm collapsed last month after he told his sons it was a $50 billion Ponzi scheme, according to a complaint filed by the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation.
HSBC spokesman Patrick McGuinness declined to comment beyond the company’s Dec. 15 statement that it “does not believe its custodial arrangement should be a source of exposure to the group.”
UBS, based in Zurich, has said it doesn’t have material exposure to Madoff’s firm and declined to comment on the liability issue.
What Investors Wanted
“Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC and Madoff’s collective investment vehicles were not on the UBS Wealth Management recommended list as direct investment options,” spokeswoman Tatiana Togni wrote in a Jan. 12 e-mail in response to questions. At the $1.4 billion LuxAlpha Sicav-American Selection fund in Luxembourg, for which UBS is a custodian, “UBS has supported wealthy individuals by establishing a fund structure at their request.”
In a separate custodial issue, a Luxembourg court today ruled that UBS’s local unit must give a French money manager the 30 million euros ($39 million) the bank is holding on its behalf. Oddo & Cie. sold shares of LuxAlpha in November. UBS didn’t send the funds after Madoff’s Dec. 11 arrest because, as custodian, it needed to ensure that any action it took was in the interest of all investors, Mousel said on Jan. 12.
If investors do pry money from the custodians, it would add to the combined $81.7 billion in writedowns and credit losses UBS and HSBC have reported since the start of the global financial crisis in 2007.
UBS rose 1.5 percent to 13.81 Swiss francs ($12.30) at 2:24 p.m. in Zurich. HSBC was down 4.8 percent at 560.5 pence ($8.19) in London.
EU Review
Funds sold in the European Union to retail customers must follow rules on how money can be invested, called the Undertaking for Collective Investment in Transferable Securities, or UCITS. The rules also set out the responsibilities of custodian banks. Liability is determined under national laws in each member state.
The EU said yesterday that it’s reviewing how rules that require EU-regulated mutual funds to safeguard clients’ assets are enforced around the 27-country bloc.
France’s Lagarde said in her letter that not all member states impose the strict obligation for custodians to reimburse investors for assets that were entrusted to them, as France does.
Luxembourg Budget Minister Luc Frieden said French criticism of investor protection rules in the country is unjustified. The laws for custodian banks in Luxembourg are “identical” to those in France, he said.
Ireland, Luxembourg
Luxembourg and Ireland have worked to become distribution centers for investment funds, said Bernard Delbecque, director of economics and research at the European Fund and Asset Management Association. Luxembourg accounted for 30 percent of the overall 5.2 trillion euros of assets in UCITS funds in Europe at the end of September, he said. Ireland ranked third with 11 percent, behind France.
This month, financial regulators in both countries said in separate statements that custodians retain responsibility for monitoring and supervising funds, even if assets are placed with a third party.
Luxembourg’s rules specify that the custodian’s role should be seen as supervisory, “which implies that the depositary must have knowledge at any time of how the assets of the UCI have been invested and where and how these assets are available,” according to a document by the country’s central bank.
UBS is the custodian for LuxAlpha and the $419 million Luxembourg Investment Fund-U.S. Equity Plus, both of which are covered by UCITS. HSBC is the custodian for the $226 million Herald LUX-US Absolute Return Fund and Dublin-based $1.1 billion Thema International Fund Plc. The net asset values are the most recent provided by each fund, according to Bloomberg data.
Redemptions Suspended
The Thema and Herald funds are managed by Bank Medici AG, the Austrian bank founded by Sonja Kohn, whose clients invested $3.2 billion in Madoff funds. The Luxembourg Investment Fund is managed by UBS, and LuxAlpha by Access International Advisors, whose chief executive offer, Thierry Magon de la Villehuchet, was found dead Dec. 23 at his office in New York.
All four funds have suspended redemptions.
Two investors in the Thema fund said they invested in European funds to benefit from the added protection that brought.
Bernd Greisinger, a money manager in Liechtenstein who runs the BG Umbrella Fund for LRI Invest SA, said he chose Thema because it was a European-regulated fund that had to be deposited through a bank. Greisinger put in an order at the end of November to sell Thema shares for $2 million to $3 million. He hasn’t received the funds, he said.
Glenn Gramolini, a Geneva-based manager of Themis MN Fund PLC, which invested in Thema six years ago, said he bought the fund because the money was in the custody of a respected bank.
“Nowhere in the prospectus was it written that the funds would be handed to Madoff,” he said. “He would have been managing the funds. I would never invest in the funds when a manager is a custodian.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Katz in Paris at [email protected]; Vernon Silver in Rome at [email protected]; Jon Menon in London at [email protected]
Last Updated: January 15, 2009 10:54 EST