Titoli di Stato area Euro GRECIA Operativo titoli di stato - Cap. 1 (6 lettori)

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onik

Forumer attivo
Ma poi resta l'interrogativo di fondo che se l'articolo del Sole (a tutta pagina, e che pagina: la 2 !) descrive la situazione di un paese il cui PIL si accinge a calare del 4% nel 2010, anzi meno, a sentire il governo greco, cosa è successo da noi nel 2009, anno in cui il PIL è calato del 5,1% ?

Al di là dei ricami poetici dei giornalisti, o abbiamo vissuto una situazione per molti versi analoga a quella greca, anzi, peggiore (e gradirei allora che ci fosse raccontata, facendo a meno del colore, ma nella sostanza) oppure forse il punto più basso dell'economia greca è ancora un bel po' più in basso di quanto non ci venga raccontato dalle autorità greche (con UE e FMI che oggi enfatizzano la parte mezza piena del bicchiere ellenico, perché così fa comodo ai mercati in questa fase già turbolenta).

Ciao Mark,
putroppo ormai si sa che nelle societa piu' avanzate quello che promulgano gli organi ufficiali di stampa e' stato filtrato a monte. E in questo noi italiani ne sappiamo qualcosa.

Internet puo' supplire (e il forum da il suo piccolo contributo), ma si deve avere del gran tempo per andare a caccia della verita', overe conoscenti greci.

un saluto
 

mago gambamerlo

Xx Phuket xX
A quanto ammontano i soli interessi passivi che deve pagare lo Stato Italiano ogni anno ? A quanto ammontano le Entrate Tributarie Totali che incassa lo Stato Italiano all' anno ? :)

Ma poi resta l'interrogativo di fondo che se l'articolo del Sole (a tutta pagina, e che pagina: la 2 !) descrive la situazione di un paese il cui PIL si accinge a calare del 4% nel 2010, anzi meno, a sentire il governo greco, cosa è successo da noi nel 2009, anno in cui il PIL è calato del 5,1% ?

Al di là dei ricami poetici dei giornalisti, o abbiamo vissuto una situazione per molti versi analoga a quella greca, anzi, peggiore (e gradirei allora che ci fosse raccontata, facendo a meno del colore, ma nella sostanza) oppure forse il punto più basso dell'economia greca è ancora un bel po' più in basso di quanto non ci venga raccontato dalle autorità greche (con UE e FMI che oggi enfatizzano la parte mezza piena del bicchiere ellenico, perché così fa comodo ai mercati in questa fase già turbolenta).
 

Imark

Forumer storico
A quanto ammontano i soli interessi passivi che deve pagare lo Stato Italiano ogni anno ? A quanto ammontano le Entrate Tributarie Totali che incassa lo Stato Italiano all' anno ? :)

Beh, a livello di finanze pubbliche, noi siamo messi un pochino meglio dei greci, se è questo che mi chiedi: siamo tornati ad avere un leggero attivo primario di bilancio già nel Q2/2009, se non vado errato.

Non è molto, ma rispetto al deficit a doppia cifra dei greci....
 

Imark

Forumer storico
Ciao Mark,
putroppo ormai si sa che nelle societa piu' avanzate quello che promulgano gli organi ufficiali di stampa e' stato filtrato a monte. E in questo noi italiani ne sappiamo qualcosa.

Internet puo' supplire (e il forum da il suo piccolo contributo), ma si deve avere del gran tempo per andare a caccia della verita', overe conoscenti greci.

un saluto

Ciao Onik, quoto quanto dici e ricambio il saluto... :up: Internet, sono d'accordo, aiuta.
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
Gov't: People realise major changes needed in Greece

http://javascript<b></b>:void windo...=400,height=250,directories=no,location=no'); Πηγή: Express.gr 30/08/10-08:28

(ANA-MPA) -- A government spokesman on Friday emphasised that "we believe that we have the consent of the people in the major effort that we are making; that they have realised that great changes are needed even sacrifices."

As regards a set of particularly gloomy perceptions of the local economy by Greek citizens -- as gauged by a recent Eurobarometer poll -- spokesman Giorgos Petalotis said the survey in question took place in May, when both efforts and procedures to buttress the country were at their peak. Conversely, he underlined that the most important finding is a maturity of the citizenry.

Asked whether the government is thinking of changing terms of the memorandum, as requested by the Athens Chamber of Commerce and Industry (EBEA), Petalotis said that "to a very large degree the policies are the government's ... with the aim of exiting the crisis ... we do not need to change anything because, although difficult, decisions are necessary, not only for us to exit the crisis, for but us to proceed with major changes."
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
News and “news” about Greece

29 August 2010 - Issue : 900


“French bank Credit Agricole has reported a big rise in profits for the first half of the year, despite feeling the impact of the Greek debt crisis.
Net profits for the first six months rose to 849m euros (£693m; $1.1bn), the bank said.”

This is what appeared in the international press as news, informing the world that the French bank Credit Agricole lost a good deal of money in Greece, due to the “impact of the Greek debt crisis”, on its affiliate in this country, Emporiki Bank. The truth is that Emporiki has being loosing a hell lot of money in Greece even in the good times, when all other major banks in the country were making record profits. The real reason for Emporiki’s problems is that Credit Agricore acquired it at a hideously high price from the Greek state and on top of that the French undertook huge obligations towards a generous pension and remuneration scheme for the personnel. Emporiki also suffered from frequent changes of top management, while all of them had little knowledge of the Greek banking system. One of them was actually a super market manager. The same is true for another French failure in Greek banking. Societe General, the other well known French banking conglomerate acquired General Bank of Greece and kept also loosing money for years.

In reality the cause for the problems of those unfortunate French banking acquisitions in Greece is not the Greek debt crisis. Equally unfortunate is the way that news are being offered by some major international media, looking always to serve generally held views, or rather ideologies irrelevant if they are true or false, to say the least. In this case everybody believes that Greece suffers of a deep financial crisis due to the over indebtedness of the government. This fact however does not explain everything that happens in the country.

If it was not for the large state debts and the huge government budget deficits, Greece would have had no serious problems with the credit melt down in the West. Its banking system had no exposure to toxic placements, unlikely almost all other Eurozone banks. Greek banks – not Emporiki¬- still make good profits even in this difficult environment. It must be noted also that during the time of the peak of the credit crisis, at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009, the Greek banking system offered a safe haven for depositors and a round sum of euro 100 billion found refuge in Greece.


(neurope.eu)
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
Greek Young People Would Opt to Emigrate for Jobs, Poll Shows

August 29, 2010, 7:56 PM EDT
By Maria Petrakis

Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Seven in 10 younger Greeks would abandon the country if they could, as austerity measures crimp incomes and reduce career prospects, an opinion poll shows.
Almost 74 percent of 5,442 college-educated Greeks said they would emigrate if given the chance, according to the survey by Kapa Research and published in To Vima newspaper. Kapa surveyed people aged 22 to 35 from June 4 to June 30. The margin of error was 1.3 percentage points.
Of those seeking to leave, 66 percent said it would be to seek a better overall quality of life, while 45 percent were motivated by finding a good job. About 13 percent said they would undertake or continue studies abroad.
Greece agreed in May to cut wages and pensions and raise taxes in return for 110 billion euros ($136 billion) in emergency loans from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. Prime Minister George Papandreou argued that the measures, to tame a budget deficit of almost 14 percent of economic output, are needed to prevent the country from defaulting on its debts after borrowing costs soared.
Unemployment in the country of 11 million rose to 12 percent in May as the economy contracted for a seventh straight quarter. In the 25-to-34 age group, the jobless rate is 15.8 percent.
Emergency Measures
The EU-IMF program won’t bring the country out of the crisis, according to 78 percent of those questioned. More than 86 percent said the measures didn’t take into account the opinions and prospects of young Greeks. Thirty-eight percent said they would leave Greece if offered a job abroad with a monthly wage of 1,500 euros to 3,000 euros.
Almost 72 percent said no political party was close to young voters, with just 8.9 percent believing Papandreou’s Pasok party struck a chord with the young. When asked who they trusted, 56 percent, the largest number, said they trusted only themselves. Companies were trusted by 8 percent, unions by 4.4 percent, political parties and politicians by 1.3 percent and the media by 0.8 percent. Some 39 percent said they didn’t trust anyone.
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
No new austerity measures


Employment & Social Insurances Minister Andreas Loverdos was quoted on Sunday as precluding any new austerity measures, while adding that the country's emergence from the current economic and fiscal crisis will be achieved via the completion of already announced reforms and, primarily, through economic growth.
In an interview published in the Sunday edition of the Athens daily "Eleftherotypia", he stated that most supplementary pension funds in the country are in a "good shape", whereas any measures dealing with the latter will be considered after actuarial studies are completed by April 2011.
In response to heated opposition criticism of the memorandum agreed to by the government and the EU-ECB-IMF "troika", the key minister underlined that "for Greece to overcome the memorandum it will have to implement it in a clear and unwavering manner".
In an unrelated development, Loverdos, a veteran PASOK minister in previous governments, ruled out his candidacy for the Athens municipality in the upcoming November election.


(ana.gr)
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
Two Messages On Greek Bonds



Two contradictory "messages" have appeared in recent days, both related to Greece.

The first comes from the information leaked from FED’s conference in Jackson Hole in Wyoming USA and the other from the headquarters of Morgan Stanley.

They both point to the depth of the unease in the markets as well as to the processes that are in progress and that concern the stance they will keep towards highly indebted economies such as PIIGS, and particularly Greece.

The first is on the ECB΄s stance on the issue of continuation of extraordinary measures concerning funding for banks. In the discussions that took place in Jackson Hole it became obvious that the ECB is likely to extend beyond October the liquidity that kicked off after the 2008 crisis.
The drift between ECB’s chief Jean Claude Juncker and Bundensbank’s head Axel Weber seems to be waning off for the time being, resulting in the consensus decision to extend the quantitative easing until at least March 2011. But it is not yet clear whether this extension will be accompanied by changes in requirements for liquidity, ie higher "Haircut" concerning collaterals.

If confirmed, this decision will be based on a deteriorating forecast concerning the economic situation in the EU.

The second message comes from a recent report by Morgan Stanley which warned investors that hold government paper to prepare for the serious possibility of "financial repression" from the governments of indebted countries.

The firm says that this oppression “can take other forms: repaying debt in devalued money (e.g., through unanticipated inflation), taxation or regulatory incentives on institutions to purchase government debt at uneconomic prices.”

MS sees sovereign creditors as tempting targets when over-indebted governments decide which of their many fiscal promises they can’t keep, since elderly pensioners cast more votes than bond holders. And it stresses that current low yields provide little protection against that threat.
The capital markets are beginning to discount this risk of carrying Greek paper in the pricing of government bonds. This is one of the main reasons why the Greek bond spreads have begun rising again. The Greek bond spread shapes over 9 - 9,5%, while the Portugese and the Irish are also deteriorating.

(Capital.gr)
 

tommy271

Forumer storico
Although still early days, plan B on debt restructuring may be taking shape

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EU, IMF may be able to sell new package if Greece has made progress in fiscal consolidation


By Dimitris Kontogiannis - Kathimerini English Edition




The markets continue to doubt Greece’s ability to avoid the restructuring of its public debt in coming years despite cutting its budget deficit by 39 percent year-on-year in the first seven months of 2010. Although both the European Union and Greek officials vehemently reject the idea of restructuring, some senior bankers and other market participants think the EU and the International Monetary Fund must be thinking about or even preparing a plan B for Greece.
It was not a good week for the debt paper of the fiscally weak eurozone countries last week. Concerns about the so-called peripheral countries intensified despite a spate of successful bond auctions. Ireland’s downgrade by Standard & Poor’s reminded everybody of the risks facing the countries with the most precarious fiscal positions, including Greece and Portugal.
Credit markets pushed the spreads on Irish credit default swaps (CDS) to record highs while spreads on 5-year CDS bought by investors to insure against a possible moratorium of payments on Greek state bonds jumped to well above 900 basis points, according to data from Markit.
According to the optimists, we should not read too much into these numbers because it is still too early to render judgment since Greece is just a few months into the program and has already made progress in cutting its budget deficit and adopted some structural measures seen boosting the competitiveness of the economy in the long run.
From this point of view, one has to wait until next February, when the official figures about the size of the 2010 budget deficit will be out, to make a wiser decision as to whether the country can avoid restructuring its public debt in the coming years. Assuming it cuts the deficit to 8.1 percent of gross domestic product in 2010, it will gain market credibility and see its spreads come down considerably, paving the way for returning to the markets with a bond auction in the second half of 2011.
However, not all are convinced by these arguments. The pessimists point to the extraordinary level of the 10-year yield bond spread separating Greece from Germany, sitting above 900 basis points, as an indication of the markets’ unwillingness to lend Greece money at reasonable spreads.
They argue that even if the country satisfies the requirements set in the economic program agreed upon with the IMF and the EU and Greek yield spreads over Germany come down considerably, the country will not be able to borrow at yields any way near the 6.0-6.5 percent range for 10 years as it did last March.
They say the risk premium required by global investors to buy Greek bonds, if any at all, will be very high with the country’s public debt-to-GDP ratio well above 130 percent, even after allowing for an expected upward adjustment of GDP in 2011 and without taking into account the uncertain effects of austerity on growth.
It may be too early to suggest which side is right or wrong.
However, some market participants from both sides seem to suspect that the EU and the IMF must be thinking about or preparing a plan B for Greece given the maturity profile of its public debt in coming years.
According to IMF estimates, Greece will have to borrow some 313 billion euros during the 2011-15 period. The country’s borrowing needs are put at about 55 billion euros in 2011, about 58 billion in 2012 and 53 billion in 2013. However, they go up to 70.7 billion in 2014 and 76.6 billion in 2015, when the country has to repay its loans to the EU and the IMF.
The market participants who think the EU and the IMF have no choice but to work on a plan B for Greece argue that the amounts, especially for 2014 and 2015, are staggering. This plan B is likely to involve a new aid package in the future according to them.
They admit the EU and the IMF will be able to sell the new package to their members more easily if Greece has made progress in its fiscal consolidation and structural reforms.
What could this plan B be all about?
Some think it may involve the extension of the maturities of Greek bonds bought by EU countries and the IMF to help lower the country’s borrowing requirement to manageable levels in coming years, especially 2014 and onward. This does not constitute a credit event as would have been the case if Greece had asked private investors to do the same and therefore has no effect on Greek CDS.
Others think it may involve a new package of structural funds from the EU to help the Greek economy grow, facilitating the repayment of its creditors. The latter may supplement the partial roll-over of Greek debt in the coming years. It is not unimaginable to think that some in the EU or the IMF may be already thinking about such a plan B for Greece even though they may deny it in public.
Nevertheless, it is also safe to say the acceptance of such a plan B would be more likely on the part of eurozone countries and the IMF if Greece were alone in needing help so that the amount of money required was manageable and the international economic environment was benign. It is reasonable to assume all bets would be off if the global economy fell back into recession but this is not the baseline scenario at this point. Therefore, the case for a plan B should not be taken lightly. Even though it is relatively early to talk about it, it is not too early to start thinking about and planning it.
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