Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (2 lettori)

[Mais78]

Bentornato mais

Mais che target daresti alla axa del titolo ?
Ne ho un bel po' prese a pmc 67,5

Abbiamo lo stesso pmc...bah, vedendo le ING e le ABN...queste a 69 sono regalate, secondo me dovrebbero essere 6-7 punti piu' su. Sono molto illiquide quindi ci vuole un po' di pazienza, io non ho fretta, anzi. Se ne avessi poche ora ne prenderei altre..
In generale vedo che il mkt penalizza un po' le tasso fisso con cedola bassa (vedi BNP FR319). Cmq con un cash yield del 7% e sotto 70 e con un buon rating c'e' poca roba, forse questa e' l'unica rimasta.

PS OTC SNS ha gia' alzato la lettera a 70.5, su guardi il book su Euronext vedi che se vuoi comprare piu' di due spiccioli la lettera e' 72.33, se son rose fioriranno..

 

[Mais78]

Prezzi

Come promesso il nuovo foglio.

 

[bosmeld]

Come promesso il nuovo foglio.

grazie mille Mais

 

[stordits]

S&P scorsa settimana ha downgradato i sub di abn olanda

X-S&P Takes Rating Actions On Some ABN AMRO Sub, Hybrid Debt
2010-01-07 10:25:45.730 GMT
• We have a clearer view of the creditworthiness of the new ABN AMRO Bank
to be created from the legal demerger of ABN AMRO in the first quarter of
2010, and we expect to rate the new bank 'A+/A-1' and assign it a negative
outlook.
• We are affirming the 'A' rating on subordinated debt instruments
allocated to the Dutch state-acquired businesses of ABN AMRO that will
constitute the new ABN AMRO Bank.
• On the two related hybrid instruments, we are maintaining the 'BB' junior
subordinated debt rating on CreditWatch but revising the implications to
negative from developing.
• The negative CreditWatch implications reflect our view of potentially
higher risk of coupon suspension on these hybrid instruments.

PARIS (Standard & Poor's) Jan. 7, 2010--Standard & Poor's Rating Services said
today that it has removed from CreditWatch and affirmed its 'A' subordinated
debt rating on instruments that Netherlands-based ABN AMRO Bank N.V. has
allocated to the businesses that the Dutch state has acquired.

At the same time, on two related hybrid instruments, we maintained the 'BB'
junior subordinated debt rating on CreditWatch but revised the implications to
negative from developing. (See the Ratings List below for those instruments
subject to today's rating action).

The demerger process of ABN AMRO Bank N.V. into businesses that the Dutch
state acquired (and other businesses that The Royal Bank of Scotland PLC (RBS;
A+/Stable/A-1) acquired) will give birth to a new Dutch bank in 2010. The new
bank will retain the ABN AMRO Bank N.V. name (referred to as "new ABN AMRO" in
this report), and will be fully owned by the State of The Netherlands
(AAA/Stable/A-1+). Assets and liabilities comprising this new bank are ABN
AMRO's Dutch commercial and retail activities and its private banking division
that the Dutch state acquired in 2008. We understand that this demerger
process is scheduled to take place during the first quarter of 2010. The Dutch
state will wholly own it through a holding structure named ABN AMRO Group N.V.
The legal structure currently named ABN AMRO Bank N.V. will remain wholly
owned by the RBS group and will be renamed RBS N.V.

Our rating actions today take into consideration the information that ABN AMRO
has communicated since the end of September 2009 including:
--Its planned demerger,
--Dutch parliamentary approval on Dec. 17, 2009, of a capital injection into
the new ABN AMRO, and
--The agreement that ABN AMRO announced on Dec. 23, 2009, to sell some Dutch
commercial banking activities to Deutsche Bank AG (A+/Stable/A-1) that make
possible the planned merger of the new ABN AMRO with Fortis Bank (Nederland)
N.V. (FBN; A/Developing/A-1) later in 2010.

Upon completion of the demerger and based on the information we have today, we
expect to assign 'A+/A-1' long- and short-term counterparty credit ratings and
a negative outlook on the bank to be created.

"The 'A' rating on the subordinated debt instruments, which are to be
transferred to the new bank, reflects our usual notching on dated subordinated
debt instruments down from the counterparty credit ratings," said Standard &
Poor's credit analyst Elisabeth Grandin.

"The negative CreditWatch implications on the junior subordinated instruments
reflect our view of a higher possibility that we may lower the ratings on the
hybrid instruments if we consider that the risk of coupon suspension has
materially increased," said Ms. Grandin.

Since spring 2009, ABN AMRO has disclosed earnings and balance sheet items for
the Dutch State-acquired businesses that will constitute the new bank. With
that information and as a result of discussions with ABN AMRO, we have now a
good view of the counterparty credit ratings on the future new ABN AMRO that
guides our subordinated debt rating. According to our criteria, we rate dated
subordinated debt instruments one notch below the long-term issuer credit
rating on a bank.

The 'A+/A-1' counterparty credit ratings we expect to assign to the new ABN
AMRO would incorporate two notches of uplift for potential parental support
above its stand-alone credit profile, in line with our expectations that The
State of Netherlands would provide exceptional support if needed. In addition,
the ratings would reflect our opinion about the new bank's good market
position in Dutch retail and small and midsize enterprise (SME) banking, as
well as its adequate funding position and sound capital. However, weaknesses
for the ratings are the new bank's relative lack of diversification, the
execution risk of the separation from RBS, and mediocre profitability. We will
update our view about how we will rate the new bank following its merger with
FBN, in the course of 2010, when prospective financials and a business plan
are made available for the new combined bank. We are expecting that the new
combined bank will continue to benefit from strong support from the full
owner, the Dutch state, as is currently the case for FBN and for our expected
rating on the new ABN AMRO.

The negative outlook we expect to assign on the new ABN AMRO would reflect the
execution risk of the planned merger with FBN and the difficulties it would
face in establishing itself as stand-alone, profitable entity in the short
term.

CREDITWATCH
We expect to resolve the CreditWatch on the two junior subordinated
instruments in the coming months, when we will have more details about the
terms of the new capital injection and a clearer view of the financial and
operational challenges linked to the merger of the new bank with FBN. The
rating on the instruments will depend on our opinion about any heightened risk
of payment deferral by the issuing bank. In particular, we will review the
terms and conditions of each instrument to determine whether the possibility
for coupon suspension has increased in light of our opinion about the
financial profile of the new ABN AMRO. Our current view is that it will have
little chance to be profit-making and distribute dividends in 2010 given
substantial integration costs. Coupon payment on the Upper Tier 2 instrument
becomes optional in the absence of ordinary dividend.

RELATED RESEARCH
FI Criteria: Bank Rating Analysis Methodology Profile, March 18, 2004

Use Of CreditWatch And Outlooks, Sept. 14, 2009

Hybrid Capital Handbook: September 2008 Edition, Sept. 15, 2008

Franchise Stability, Confidence Sensitivity, And The Treatment Of Hybrid
Securities In A Downturn, Dec. 1, 2008

RATINGS LIST
Ratings Affirmed; CreditWatch/Outlook Action
To From
ABN AMRO Bank N.V.

Subordinated A A/Watch Dev
US$250 mil 7.75% sub dep nts ser B due 05/15/2023 (New York branch) CUSIP
00077TAA2 ISIN US00077TAA25
US$1 bil fltg rate callable lower tier II sub nts ser 822 due 01/17/2017
CINS N002A32L6 ISIN XS0282833184
US$100 mil fltg rate callable lower tier II sub med-term nts ser 732 due
10/26/2015 CINS N002A3BB8 ISIN XS0233906121
EUR103.4 mil fltg rate sub nts ser 267 due 07/21/2020 CINS N04897AA7 ISIN
XS0114072423
EUR82 mil fltg rate sub nts ser 261 due 06/30/2017 CINS N02601AE7 ISIN
XS0113243470
EUR500 mil fltg rate sub nts ser 775 due 05/31/2018 CINS N002A3TM5 ISIN
XS0256778464
EUR1 bil fltg rate lower tier II sub nts due 09/14/2016 CINS N002A3XZ1 ISIN
XS0267063435

Junior Subordinated BB/Watch Neg BB/Watch Dev
Junior Subordinated GBP750 mil var rate fxd/fltg rate callable perp sub (upper
Tier 2) hybrid ser 752 ICINS XS0244754254
Junior Subordinated EUR1 bil var rate step-up/fxd callable perp secs (Tier 1)
hybrid ICINS XS0246487457


Complete ratings information is available to RatingsDirect on the Global
Credit Portal subscribers at www.globalcreditportal.com and RatingsDirect
subscribers at www.ratingsdirect.com. All ratings affected by this rating
action can be found on Standard & Poor's public Web site at
www.standardandpoors.com. Use the Ratings search box located in the left
column. Alternatively, call one of the following Standard & Poor's numbers:
Client Support Europe (44) 20-7176-7176; London Press Office (44)
20-7176-3605; Paris (33) 1-4420-6708; Frankfurt (49) 69-33-999-225; Stockholm
(46) 8-440-5914; or Moscow (7) 495-783-4011


ABN IN POUND ED EURO CHE SONO STATI DOWNGRADATI A BB NEGATIVE WATCH STANNO SALENDO SECONDO ME PERCHE' CORRETTAMENTE L'AGENZIA DI RATING PARLA DI SOSPENSIONE DI CEDOLE E NON DI CEDOLE PERSE.

DUNQUE PARLANDO DELLA MIA UT2 IN POUND E' ANDATO DA 59 OFFER A 63 ED E' ANCORA DA COMPRARE


SOLENOIDE CHE NE PENSI?

 

[ferdo]

...
p.s Ing 127 forse era meglio tenersela ancora un po, piuttosto che liquidirla venerdì
c'è pero da dire che con il senno del poi siamo tutti dei grandi maghi

eh sì guardando stamattina Euronext, forse siamo stati un po' precipitosi,
la ING 127 sembra salita di un paio di punti mentre la W70 sembra ancora ferma - bisogna poi vedere con le quotazioni IW

 

[mac]

Come promesso il nuovo foglio.

Ancora grazie e bentornato!

 

[Topgun1976]

Non so Voi ma io Stò switchando Quasi Tutto su altre Perpetual illiquidi...A parte Abn stò andando su Nuove emittenti,i prezzi di Questi giorni mi sembrano esagerati ,a meno che come già dicevo Venerdi ,le Banche partiranno con Opa a Gogo...E il Santander è li a dimostrarlo...........Però non cè offerta sui Tv Legati all 'Irs

 

[bosmeld]

Non so Voi ma io Stò switchando Quasi Tutto su altre Perpetual illiquidi...A parte Abn stò andando su Nuove emittenti,i prezzi di Questi giorni mi sembrano esagerati ,a meno che come già dicevo Venerdi ,le Banche partiranno con Opa a Gogo...E il Santander è li a dimostrarlo...........Però non cè offerta sui Tv Legati all 'Irs

topgun facci qualche nome, grazie

che cosa stai comprando?

p.s io avessi titoli italiani a questi prezzi apparte forse bpvn e antonventa liquideri tutto. ormai sono a 100 e anche oltre


p.ps Ing non ne vuole sapere di fermarsi la 127 ora a 62,5 e la 587 a 67,20
manca poco e costano quanto axa.



Euronext -
Euronext -

 

[bulogna]

Come promesso il nuovo foglio.

Bentornato

 

[Topgun1976]

topgun facci qualche nome, grazie

che cosa stai comprando?

p.s io avessi titoli italiani a questi prezzi apparte forse bpvn e antonventa liquideri tutto. ormai sono a 100 e anche oltre


p.ps Ing non ne vuole sapere di fermarsi la 127 ora a 62,5 e la 587 a 67,20
manca poco e costano quanto axa.




Qui I Casi Sono 2 o cè un Opa in Arrivo su Ing,o Axa è Indietro...Io propendo per la Prima Idea.

I Nomi?Sono ancora in Fase di Studio e Stò aspettando Iw x i prezzi e si si possono prendere.

Cmq Molta Spagna,con le Plus si Può rischiare di Più