Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (10 lettori)

[solenoide]

Vinci fr0010289496

Cercando la definizione di deeply subordinated ho trovato la presentazione della Vinci FR0010289496 che potrebbe essere interessante per chi cerca titoli non finanziari.
L'ho aggiunta al prospetto.
http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/1009017-post70.html

 

[capt.harlock]

speriamo che a sberbank rimangano ancora soldini per altre acquisizioni..1mld$ e'uscito dalle casse
Sberbank acquisirà Troika Dialog - Yahoo! Finanza

groupama probabile che molli l'osso fondiaria e si accontenti "solo" di milano assicurazioni

 

[stordits]

Europe Boosts Bailout Fund With Primary-Market Purchases, Eases Greek Pact

Euro-area leaders retooled their rescue fund to stamp out the debt crisis, authorizing the facility to spend its 440 billion-euro ($611 billion) capacity and enabling it to buy debt in primary markets, while cutting the cost of bailout loans to Greece.

The officials rejected Ireland’s bid for relief as Prime Minister Enda Kenny refused to yield to calls to raise its 12.5 percent company tax rate. The leaders also declined to permit the fund to finance bond buybacks of debt-strapped states.

“This is an important message on the political pledge of the euro members to fight for the euro’s stability,” German Chancellor Angela Merkel said in Brussels after the summit ended at about 1:30 a.m. today. “Everyone had to make a contribution. I hope that this will also be a good message to the world in terms of the euro as a major currency.”

The agreement broke a deadlock as European policy makers sought to extinguish a crisis that has raged for more than a year and frustrated unprecedented efforts to contain it. Bond yields in Greece and Portugal touched euro-era records this week, debt ratings of Greece and Spain were cut, and the euro recorded its biggest weekly drop since the first week of 2011.

The accord was unexpected, coming at the end of a session that began after 5 p.m. following daylong talks among the 27 European Union heads on a response to the uprising in Libya. Officials in Germany and France this week said they didn’t expect a comprehensive agreement until a summit March 24-25.

Budget Rules

An initial deal last night on a plan to tighten economic cooperation and boost competitiveness committed nations to enact budget rules into law, a core German demand, and paved the way for the final agreement.

In return for the euro region acceptance of her conditions on controlling debt, Merkel swung Europe’s biggest economy behind plans to allow greater flexibility and firepower in the EU rescue fund, the European Financial Stability Facility.

The EFSF had been limited to spending about 250 billion euros due to reserves it had to hold for its AAA rating. The commitment wasn’t matched with detail as Merkel indicated states will increase their guarantees. The provision to allow primary- market bond purchases will offer a lifeline to aid recipients through giving them access to markets.

A basic accord was also reached on the permanent safety net from 2013, the European Stability Mechanism, with a mix of guarantees and capital, she said.

Greece, Portugal

Adding urgency to the talks, the leaders met amid speculation that Greece would be forced to restructure its debt and Portugal would soon be the third euro nation to need help.

Greek 10-year yields rose 6 basis points yesterday to 12.81 percent and similar-maturity Irish yields jumped 14 basis points to 9.65 percent. Greek securities plunged this week after Moody’s Investors Service cut the nation’s rating, already at junk, by another three levels, saying the probability of default had increased. Credit-default swaps on Greek government debt rose 8 basis points to a record 1,048 basis points.

Leaders made a provisional agreement to lower Greece’s interest rates of about 5 percent for aid by 100 basis points, and extend the repayment period of the loans to 7 1/2 years from three years.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou said the moves would save about 6 billion euros over the life of the loans.

“Greece has made major efforts, just look at the size of their privatization program,” French President Nicolas Sarkozy said. “We’re not asking Ireland to put up their corporate taxes to the European average, but to make some effort.”

Kenny’s Clash

With two weeks to the March 24-25 summit endgame, Merkel and Sarkozy clashed with Kenny over corporate taxes. They had insisted on a common corporate tax base as the condition for agreeing to ease the terms of Ireland’s 85 billion-euro bailout. Kenny rejected that position, calling it “harmonization of taxes through the back door.”

Ireland’s main corporate tax rate is 12.5 percent, compared with an EU average of about 23 percent and even higher rates in Germany and France, which it has used to lure companies such as Hewlett-Packard Co.

The European Commission, the EU’s executive body, will present a proposal on a common corporate tax base in the coming weeks, the agency said. Ireland will think it over and come back to the rest of the EU within two weeks, Merkel said.

Talks on a deal for Ireland “will be difficult and detailed but I am convinced and remain convinced that there will be that we can find a way forward,” Kenny said.

Portugal Cuts

With the debt crisis lapping at Portugal’s shores, Prime Minister Jose Socrates’s government yesterday announced new commitments on deficit reduction amounting to 0.8 percent of gross domestic product for this year.

The yield on Portugal’s five-year debt surged to a euro-era record of 8 percent on speculation that would soon be forced to seek a bailout. Portugal’s 10-year bond yields reached 7.70 percent on March 9, the highest since at least 1997.

European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet, who also attended the talks, said the “credibility” of the Portuguese government “seems to me considerably re-enforced by these measures, which are of substance. When you go through all the measures, you see they are very substantial.”

 

[maxolone]

Eurozone debt deal struck



Going into the emergency summit Friday, financial markets had expected very little from high-profile gathering, and yields on bonds for Greece, Ireland and Portugal all hit new highs in the days ahead of the gathering.
The decision to allow the €440bn fund to intervene in the so-called primary bond market was particularly unexpected. But under the terms of the deal, the fund – formally known as the European Financial Stability Facility – would only be able to buy sovereign bonds if a country is willing to enter into an austerity programme similar to the current bail-outs.
“It won’t make a huge difference,” said Angela Merkel, the German chancellor.
The only element of a deal that was not agreed to was a cut in the interest rate for Ireland’s bail-out loans. Like Greece, Ireland was offered a full percentage point cut in its borrowing costs, from about 6 per cent to 5 per cent. But Enda Kenny, the new Irish prime minister, refused to cede ground to a Franco-German demand that he, in return, raise Ireland’s ultra-low corporate tax rate.
“Obviously, this is a very touchy subject for our Irish friends,” said Nicoals Sarkozy, the French president. “It’s hard to have other countries help or bail out Ireland when Ireland has the lowest corporate tax rates in Europe.” EU leaders said Mr Kenny would be given to the next EU summit, to be held on March 24 and 25, to go along with the deal.
Diplomats said the difference over the corporate taxes lead to a heated exchange between Mr Kenny and Mr Sarkozy during the closed-door summit negotiations.
Mr Kenny described the exchange as “a good, vigorous and vibrant discussion”, but conceded the issue had prevented an agreement.
“In respect to harmonising tax rates, I said this is an issue that I could not contemplate,” he said. “The French president has very clear views on corporate tax rates; so have I.”
In addition to getting its interest rates cut, Greece also got its repayment schedule extended from 4.5 years to 7.5 years, a delay that was widely expected.
Herman Van Rompuy, the summit’s president, said that while the government leaders had agreed to increase the lending capacity of the €440bn fund, eurozone finance ministers would be tasked with determining how it could be achieved.
Because of cash reserves the fund must hold in order to maintain a triple-A rating, the €440bn facility – formally known as the European Financial Stability Facility – can only loan about €250bn of the €440bn it can raise.
Under the new deal, it would be able to lend the full €440bn. It is likely that eurozone countries with the strongest credit ratings, particularly France and Germany, will have to increase their financial guarantees to achieve that level, a controversial move in Germany.
“Everything will come together at the European council at the end of March,” Mr Van Rompuy said. “This should allow us to finally turn the corner.”

SECONO ME NON CAMBIA COMUNQUE NULLA...VEDO UN RESTRINGIMENTO DEGLI SPREAD LUN E MAR MA MOLTO LEGGERO...

 

[Rottweiler]

Il quesito del week-end....

Il summit di ieri era preceduto da previsioni per lo più negative. "Unexpectedly", i risultati sono stati abbastanza positivi, anche se le somme si potranno tirare solo tra 2 settimane.
Ecco ora la domanda che vi pongo: se aveste conosciuto in anticipo (diciamo ieri mattina) l'esito del summit, quali tra i seguenti titoli avreste acquistato?
*TdS greci
*TdS italiani e spagnoli
*TdS irlandesi
*azionario banche
*perp, in particolare dei Paesi periferici con alta cedola a TF
*perp, in particolare TV
*nessuno
*altri

Chi vuole dire la sua?

 

[discipline]

Il summit di ieri era preceduto da previsioni per lo più negative. "Unexpectedly", i risultati sono stati abbastanza positivi, anche se le somme si potranno tirare solo tra 2 settimane.
Ecco ora la domanda che vi pongo: se aveste conosciuto in anticipo (diciamo ieri mattina) l'esito del summit, quali tra i seguenti titoli avreste acquistato?
*TdS greci
*TdS italiani e spagnoli
*TdS irlandesi
*azionario banche
*perp, in particolare dei Paesi periferici con alta cedola a TF
*perp, in particolare TV
*nessuno
*altri

Chi vuole dire la sua?

Ieri sono stato a guardare. L'altro giorno, a seguire il downgrade, ho preso ancora un po' di tds greci. Al tempo ho stesso ho potato dal portafoglio perp TF (Kbc, Ing, BPCE), un po' perché arrivate, un po' per tenere liquidi di scorta, viste le previsioni negative. Spero di aver fatto al massimo 1 errore solo..

 

[Topgun1976]

Ciao Top,
sono leggermente arrugginito ma sull'argomento ricordo che "Deeply subordinated" (in francese TTS, Titres super subordonnés)sostanzialmente e' solo una definizione a cui dovrebbero corrispondere obbligazioni Tier 1 , "Dated senior subordinated" LT2 , "Undated senior subordinated" UT2 o simili.
Uso il condizionale poiche' AXA subordina le "undated subordinated" alle "dated subordinated" mentre Groupama sembra metterle sullo stesso piano.
Purtroppo nel tempo mi sono reso conto che tutte queste sottigliezze sono superiori alle mie scarse capacita' interpretative...ad esempio spulciando i prospetti ho notato che per Axa la governing law e' inglese , per CNP e Groupama francese e non ho la minima idea di quali possano essere le conseguenze di questa diversita'.
CNP utilizza la definizione "junior subordinated" invece che "deeply subordinated" per distinguerle dalle "ordinary subordinated" , immagino equivalenti alle "senior subordinated" di altri emittenti francesi ma la storia non cambia.
Se poi andiamo a vedere i singoli prospetti CNP tra le "junior subordinated" trovi sia la 789 finale , non cumulativa e con loss , che la 328 finale con loss ma cumulativa.
Entrambi "Junior subordinated" e pertanto pari passu tra loro.
Sempre tra le francesi le due BPCE 9% e 9,25% sono deeply subordinated e come prospetto molto simili alle italiane tipo Intesa 506.
A memoria non esiste un ulteriore grado di subordinazione intermedio , le MPS ed Antonveneta benche' non abbiano loss absorption secondo me hanno lo stesso grado di subordinazione di Intesa 506 o delle deeply/junior francesi .
Altro esempio che ricordo, non francese , e' ING.
Tutti i suoi Tier 1 sono pari passu indipendentemente dalle clausole : si va dalla 587 cumulativa e senza loss fino alla 8,439% Capital Funding Trust III non cumulativa.

Dette subordonnée et super-subordonnée | Le Cercle Les Echos

Pour le respect des ratios de capital, les banques avaient, depuis de nombreuses années, recouru à la juniorisation de leurs dettes, les normes IFRS les acceptant selon leur nature au niveau Tier 1, Tier 2 ou 3. Dans le Tier 1 étaient compris outre les actions, les titres super subordonnés à durée indéterminée. Dans le Tier 2, c’était un peu plus subtile. Les titres subordonnés à durée indéterminée étaient intégrés dans le Upper Tier 2. Par opposition aux précédents, s’ils n’avaient pas de date de maturité, ils étaient assortis d’une option de remboursement anticipé (call) à partir de 5 ans. Dans le Lower Tier 2, se trouvaient des titres subordonnés à cinq ans et plus sans priorité de remboursement. Quant au Tier 3, il regroupait les titres subordonnés avec une date d’échéance supérieure à 2 ans. Le recours à ces titres qu’on qualifie aussi d’hybride répondait au souci de maintien des fonds propres des banques à un niveau élevé sans pour autant augmenter leur capital avec tous les inconvénients en matière de dilution qui en résulteraient

Ciao Sole,da te accetto tutto perchè sai argomentare,e ti conosco da tempo,e ti ho sempre apprezzato.Io però mi sono limitato a leggere il prospetto,e non mi pare che le AntonMps,Ubi sia Deeply.Deeply sono tipicamente quelle che hanno los Abs Hard.
Questo ho fatto notare a Fabbro che dice che sono Certamente Deeply ,ma non argomenta.

Io avevo imparato che le Junior Sub sono le Cumulative,tipo le Ing 587 127 poi ci sono sfaccettature in ogni prospetto e anche questo l'abbiamo imparato.

 

[Topgun1976]

Il summit di ieri era preceduto da previsioni per lo più negative. "Unexpectedly", i risultati sono stati abbastanza positivi, anche se le somme si potranno tirare solo tra 2 settimane.
Ecco ora la domanda che vi pongo: se aveste conosciuto in anticipo (diciamo ieri mattina) l'esito del summit, quali tra i seguenti titoli avreste acquistato?
*TdS greci
*TdS italiani e spagnoli
*TdS irlandesi
*azionario banche
*perp, in particolare dei Paesi periferici con alta cedola a TF
*perp, in particolare TV
*nessuno
*altri

Chi vuole dire la sua?

$ e Tds Italiani

 

[Topgun1976]

Eurozone debt deal struck





SECONO ME NON CAMBIA COMUNQUE NULLA...VEDO UN RESTRINGIMENTO DEGLI SPREAD LUN E MAR MA MOLTO LEGGERO...

Be intanto Porta a 7 anni da 3 il preriodo del prestito alla Grecia e la Riduzione del Tasso D'interesse,ottimo per i Greci.
Poi permette l'acquisto dei Tds da Parte del Fondo di Stabilità,altra cosa che fino a ieri era moolto difficile.
Secondo me Sono Buone News

 

[Zorba]

Il summit di ieri era preceduto da previsioni per lo più negative. "Unexpectedly", i risultati sono stati abbastanza positivi, anche se le somme si potranno tirare solo tra 2 settimane.
Ecco ora la domanda che vi pongo: se aveste conosciuto in anticipo (diciamo ieri mattina) l'esito del summit, quali tra i seguenti titoli avreste acquistato?
*TdS greci
*TdS italiani e spagnoli
*TdS irlandesi
*azionario banche
*perp, in particolare dei Paesi periferici con alta cedola a TF
*perp, in particolare TV
*nessuno
*altri

Chi vuole dire la sua?

TDS greci (per speculazione a breve, con eventuale stop loss)
TDS italiani.

IMHO certe P rimangono in bolla.
Anche l'azionario è un po' altino... però qui è come fare l'oroscopo da quattro soldi.

Mi piace poco il fatto che l'Irlanda sia stato rispedita la mittente. Non vorrei che come ripicca gli irlandesi segassero davvero i senior unsecured delle banche.... Sarebbe nefasto sicuramente per le sub e senior irlandesi , ma anche per il settore finanziario in genere (si riprenderebbe a ballare)