Obbligazioni societarie CIT Group, SLM, GMAC e le finanziarie USA che (forse) si salveranno diventando banche

Sicuro che sia CIT Group e non Citigroup o qualche emittente di quel gruppo bancario ? Molti fanno confusione, ma sono due soggetti completamente differenti... ;)

E mica ti avevo visto, scusami... :lol:

Ribadiamo: no, sono due cose differenti Citigroup è un gruppo bancario, CIT Group è una finanziaria che eroga credito a persone e imprese.


OK in ogni modo l'ho venduta lo stesso e ribadisco il sollievo. :lol:
Comunque, tanto per discorrere, se questi hanno dato 5,7 billions in loans agli studenti che cosa ne sarebbe di questa cosa dovessero andare in default? :)
 
OK in ogni modo l'ho venduta lo stesso e ribadisco il sollievo. :lol:
Comunque, tanto per discorrere, se questi hanno dato 5,7 billions in loans agli studenti che cosa ne sarebbe di questa cosa dovessero andare in default? :)

Veramente il problema è opposto, ossia che gli studenti (talvolta) potrebbero non essere in grado di restituire il prestito a CIT... :lol: :D cmq questi loans in particolare, se ho letto bene, sono assistiti da garanzia governativa (una buona fetta dei prestiti accordati agli studenti lo sono, negli USA) per cui qui non ci dovrebbero essere problemi per nessuno... ;)
 
Veramente il problema è opposto, ossia che gli studenti (talvolta) potrebbero non essere in grado di restituire il prestito a CIT... :lol: :D cmq questi loans in particolare, se ho letto bene, sono assistiti da garanzia governativa (una buona fetta dei prestiti accordati agli studenti lo sono, negli USA) per cui qui non ci dovrebbero essere problemi per nessuno... ;)


Meno male poveri :D. Fino ad ora avevo pensato che l'America fosse un bel posto per esser giovani ma un discreto incubo per esser vecchi o, peggio, malati e temevo di dovermi ricredere. Vabbè la chiudo qui perché così è più da cazzeggio che in topic. Ciao :)
 
Anche Fitch ha portato il rating sotto l'IG. Considerazioni analoghe a quelle fatte da Moody's su liquidità, modello di funding, livelli di capitalizzazione e deterioramento degli asset in prospettiva nei prossimi quartes.


Fitch: CIT's Financial Flexibility Shrinking; IDR Downgraded to 'BB+'

24 Apr 2009 3:35 PM (EDT)

Fitch Ratings-New York-24 April 2009: Pressure on asset quality and liquidity have reduced CIT's financial flexibility, according to Fitch Ratings, which has downgraded CIT's long-term Issuer Default Rating (IDR) to 'BB+' from 'BBB'. The Rating Outlook for CIT remains Negative.

CIT's level of profitability will likely be strained in subsequent quarters which raises concern with the companies ability to retain acceptable levels of capital from a regulatory perspective as well as maintaining sufficient buffers to support current rating levels.

Fitch recognizes that CIT has been actively pursuing alternatives to address identified liquidity concerns. Primary components of CIT's action plan have focused on government related programs following CIT's approval as a bank holding company.

Specifically, CIT is seeking funding under the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation's (FDIC) Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP) and flexibility under section 23A of the Bank Holding Company Act that governs transfers of assets between bank holding companies and the banks that the holding company owns.

Fitch notes that progress is being made on both fronts. Fitch's rating downgrade incorporates an expectation that CIT will be able to gain much of what it is seeking under these government programs, although the timing and precise levels can not yet be determined.

CIT's continued level of high reliance on government programs does establish a level of financial flexibility and control that is inconsistent with investment grade ratings.

While subsequent quarters are expected to bring clarity to a number of key rating factors, the development of CIT's liquidity profile needs to go beyond execution of getting access to government programs in order to remove liquidity concerns related to the ratings.

Evidence that CIT is moving in a direction of establishing access to a variety of funding sources, both secured and unsecured, are viewed as critical to its ability to operate soundly in the long-term. The change in status to a bank holding company and more active focus on developing the bank as a primary operating subsidiary, provide a foundation for CIT to achieve such goals.

If amounts requested under TLGP and 23A transfers are not approved or significantly less than anticipated, near-term pressure on the holding company's liquidity is likely. Should CIT's liquidity position deteriorate to a point where it must significantly reduce new loan originations or retain cash from portfolio payments to meet maturing debt obligations, such an outcome may not be supportive of a viable, long-term business model and may prompt Fitch to downgrade CIT's ratings further into speculative grade territory.

The Negative Outlook reflects Fitch's expectation that near-term liquidity will remain under pressure until the outcome of the company's request for TLGP and 23A is identified. Importantly, the outlook also highlights that CIT's core business activities will be challenged in the current operating environment. First quarter results reflect such challenges. Fitch expects such challenges to remain for the intermediate term.

The transfers of key asset classes to the bank may reduce liquidity and funding pressures, but asset quality performance will remain a challenge and will continue to strain profitability and capital.

A leveling off of asset quality deterioration is possible later in 2009 or early 2010, but Fitch believes it is premature to incorporate such developments into its rating at this time
 
Sicuro che sia CIT Group e non Citigroup o qualche emittente di quel gruppo bancario ? Molti fanno confusione, ma sono due soggetti completamente differenti... ;)

Ciao Mark, sai darmi indicazioni per trovare sul forum report recenti su ABN AMRO o RBS - con la funzione ricerca non ho trovato nulla (forse imposto male i dati). Vorrei documentarmi per eventualmente entrare su 2 emissioni interessanti denominate Royal quotate sul Mot dal 23-04-09: una con cedola t.f. 5,5% e una t.v. euribor+2% - grazie
 
Ultima modifica di un moderatore:
Ciao Mark, sai darmi indicazioni per trovare sul forum report recenti su ABN AMRO o RBS - con la funzione ricerca non ho trovato nulla (forse imposto male i dati). Vorrei documentarmi per eventualmente entrare su 2 emissioni interessanti denominate Royal quotate sul Mot dal 23-04-90: una con cedola t.f. 5,5% e una t.v. euribor+2% - grazie

Ciao Reno, dubito che saprei fare altro anch'io, anche perché li seguo piuttosto da lontano.

Sulla prima, ho visto che si è sviluppata una interessante discussione, con molte info sull'emittente, sul 3D delle perpetual, per cui mi scorrerei un mesetto di pagine all'indietro e partirei da lì alla raccolta di notizie...

Su RBS non ho visto molto, a dire il vero...

Ps: su RBS cmq i 3D da visitare sono quello sul futuro delle banche e il Monitor delle maggiori banche... se non c'è nulla lì.... peraltro entrambi con interventi lunghi, si scorrono velocemente.
 
Sul FOL era stato aperto un 3D interessante in cui si seguiva l'andamento di questa società e dei suoi titoli, insieme con Giveme5, Researcher, Methos, TheLondoner ed altri ancora.

Non ho mai avuto bond CIT Group, per cui il mio monitoraggio è stato clandestino fin da principio, secondo gli standard attualmente in voga da quelle parti (per cui solo chi ha dei bond è deputato a parlarne) ma le ragioni per cui seguivo erano essenzialmente due, ossia: 1) la situazione distressed in cui versavano i bond di una maggiori finanziarie USA poteva costituire un'occasione di investimento ?; ma soprattutto 2) cosa vogliono fare gli USA delle loro enormi finanziarie erogatrici di loans di ogni sorta, quale ruolo vogliono riservare loro in futuro ? Le salveranno, non le salveranno, come le salveranno ...

Alcune risposte sono venute a queste domande, altre ancora mancano e non è affatto certo il come andranno a finire le cose...

Il tutto si riflette nei corsi dei bond (qui sotto, esemplificativamente, il 4,25% 2011 XS0201605192)

http://anleihen.onvista.de/snapshot.html?ID_INSTRUMENT=11397485&SEARCH_VALUE=XS0201605192

Ma anche in quelli dell'equity

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ta?t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&p=m50,m100&a=r14&c=&s=cit

Vedrò quindi qui di recuperare i materiali più interessanti postati sul FOL e di continuare ad aggiornare la situazione... un commento di S&P nei giorni scorsi all'ennesimo downgrade mi sembra interessante e lo riproporrò al termine del recupero di materiali dal FOL...

Tenete conto che il rating di CIT è passato da A/stable a fine gennaio 2008 al BBB-/negative attuale...

Riparto dal primo post, perché questa é un'altra delle partite lasciate aperte dalla sgonfiamento della bolla del credito USA, e finché non si sarà trovata una qualche soluzione finale, anche da qui potranno venire episodi di destabilizzazione dei mercati finanziari, perché i nodi vengono al pettine, le decisioni dovranno essere prese e c'é da capire se ed in quale misura gli obbligazionisti saranno eventualmente chiamati a pagare il conto... :cool:

Anche perché il discorso che si fa per CIT vale per SLM, vale per GMAC, (e nel 3D di GM ho postato un commento di S&P che conclude per la non importanza sistemica di GMAC nel caso in cui il Governo USA si stancasse di metterci soldi... :cool:, che é un modo carino di dire che nel caso si tratta di trovare la maniera di farla defaultare senza creare troppa confusione sui mercati) e vale in generale per molte finanziarie USA.

Ad illustrare la problematicità della situazione é ancora una volta il caso di CIT (fra le maggiori finanziarie USA indipendenti) il cui rating sul debito senior unsecured viene ridotto da Fitch a BB.

CIT infatti ha debito in scadenza per 1,5 mld $ questo mese e dipende largamente dalla liquidità che riceve e potrebbe ricevere da fonti pubbliche federali, quali il programma TLGP (al quale ha fatto richiesta di ammissione, senza che ad oggi essa sia stata accolta) e la partecipazione ai repo della FED mediante un meccanismo che - previo consenso delle autorità bancarie - permette alla CIT finanziaria (oggi con status di holding bancaria) di trasferire ad una banca commerciale da essa controllata alcuni asset poi utilizzabili come collaterale per averne in cambio liquidità.

Circa la prima vicenda, il fatto che essa sia ancora pendente, se non si sbloccasse in tempo utile, costringerebbe CIT a costituire garanzie reali su propri asset per ottenere credito "secured" sui mercati, unico modo per ottenere liquidità.

Tale processo però concorre a svuotare la garanzia offerta ai bondholders unsecured, rendendoli subordinati rispetto ai nuovi creditori secured.

Ed i bondholders già si sono visti ridurre la propria garanzia patrimoniale dalla cessione di asset da CIT alla banca da essa controllata. Tale operazione infatti, se da un lato ha consentito a CIT di ricevere liquidità indispensabile per l'operatività e per fronteggiare le scadenze sul debito, dall'altro fa sì che, in caso di default di CIT, il loro credito si trovi ad essere in posizione subordinata rispetto a quello vantato dai creditori diretti della CIT bank.

Ove la richiesta di accesso ai fondi TLGP dovesse avere esito negativo, Fitch procederà ad un downgrade per diversi livelli del rating corporate di CIT, in quanto il funding "secured", se nel breve consente di mettere una falla ai problemi di approvvigionamento di liquidità, nel lungo non consente di vedere soluzioni alla questione del funding e dunque in occasione di prossime scadenze CIT potrebbe trovarsi nelle condizioni di defaultare...

Situazione certamente da tenere d'occhio... :cool:

Fitch Downgrades CIT's Sr Debt & Places Ratings on Watch Negative Pending FDIC TLGP Resolution

01 Jun 2009 5:56 PM (EDT)

Fitch Ratings-New York-01 June 2009: Fitch Ratings has downgraded the senior debt ratings of CIT Group Inc. (CIT) and its Canadian and Australian subsidiaries to 'BB' from 'BB+'. At the same time, Fitch has placed all the ratings of CIT and its subsidiaries on Rating Watch Negative (see full list below). Approximately $36.8 billion of debt is affected by this action.

Today's action reflects concern with CIT's reduced financial flexibility and its dependence on alternative funding sources to meet its maturing debt obligations, including approximately $1.5 billion of maturing debt obligations during the month of June 2009.

Fitch notes that CIT has been seeking funding under the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.'s (FDIC) Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP) and flexibility under Section 23A of the Bank Holding Company Act that governs transfers of assets between bank holding companies and the banks that the holding company owns.

In completing the initial phase of 23A transactions, the company transferred $5.7 billion in assets to CIT Bank and received $1.6 billion in cash. However, CIT has yet to obtain access to TLGP funding. Fitch's previous rating actions on CIT incorporated an expectation that some level of funding under the TLGP would be available.

At the present time, CIT's TLGP application with the FDIC is still pending.

An inability to access the TLGP and timely execute additional 23A transactions would likely force CIT to seek alternative sources of secured funding. The encumbering of assets to secure these new liquidity providers would be to the detriment of unsecured creditors.

In that event, Fitch would anticipate a multi-notch downgrade of CIT's Issuer Default Rating (IDR) as secured funding may address immediate liquidity needs, but it may not support more intermediate debt maturities.

If CIT were to gain access to TLGP funding, the company's ratings could still be pressured, reflecting the difficult operating environment, although a reduction in the near-term liquidity risk may deter any further rating actions. Conversely, ratings stability could be achieved longer term if the company can access TLGP, complete 23A initiatives while improving overall fundamental performance.

The downgrade of CIT's senior debt ratings reflects the relative position of these instruments in CIT's capital structure and Fitch's belief that further subordination of these obligations may occur. This is largely driven by a larger proportion of business being conducted out of the regulated bank and the changes in the holding company, which may entail greater reliance on secured funding at the holding company level.

Fitch expects to resolve the Rating Watch on CIT pending the outcome of TLGP.

The following ratings have been downgraded and placed on Rating Watch Negative:
CIT Group Inc.
CIT Funding Group of Canada, Inc.
CIT Group (Australia) Inc.
--Senior debt downgraded to 'BB from 'BB+'.
Fitch has placed the following ratings on Rating Watch Negative:
CIT Group Inc.
--Long-term IDR 'BB+';
--Short-term IDR 'B';
--Individual 'D'.
--Subordinated/Jr. Subordinated debt 'BB-';
--Preferred 'B';
--Short-term 'B'.
CIT Bank
--Long-term IDR 'BB+';
--Individual 'C/D';
--Long-term deposits 'BBB-';
--Short-term IDR 'F3';
--Short-term deposits 'F3'.
CIT Funding Group of Canada, Inc.
--Long-term IDR 'BB+;
--Short-term IDR 'B'.
CIT Group (Australia) Inc.
--Long-term IDR 'BB+';
--Short-term IDR 'B';
--Short-term 'B'.
Fitch has affirmed the following: CIT Group Inc.
--Support at '5';
--Support Floor at 'NF'. CIT Bank
--Support at '4';
--Support Floor at 'B'.
 
Brutta faccenda... anche qui, o arrivano le giubbe blu con il cash, oppure la benzina é finita, secondo S&P, che abbatte il rating di 3 livelli e tiene CIT Group in creditwatch negative finché non sarà stata definita la vicenda dell'accesso al TLGP.

CIT Group Inc. Downgraded To 'BB-/B' From 'BBB-/A-3'; Placed On CreditWatch Negative

-- CIT's funding profile has not benefited from converting into a bank holding company (BHC) to the degree we had expected, which has caused further erosion in liquidity available to repay maturing obligations and meet lending commitments. Thus far, CIT has not been granted access to the FDIC's Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP).
-- We are lowering our rating on CIT to 'BB-/B' from 'BBB-/A-3' and placing it on CreditWatch Negative.
-- We believe that CIT's liquidity position prospectively will deteriorate to a level inconsistent with the rating if it is unable to benefit from the TLGP and additional transfers of assets to CIT Bank.
-- If CIT's liquidity position and funding costs benefit materially from current initiatives, we will remove the CreditWatch listing and affirm the ratings within 90 days.

NEW YORK (Standard & Poor's) June 12, 2009--Standard & Poor's Ratings Services said today that it lowered its ratings on CIT Group Inc., including its counterparty credit rating, to 'BB-/B' from 'BBB-/A-3'. We also lowered our ratings on CIT's hybrid capital instruments to 'CCC+' from 'B+'. At the same time, we placed our rating on CIT on CreditWatch with negative implications.

"The downgrade reflects our assessment that CIT's funding profile has not benefited from converting into a bank holding company (BHC) to the degree we had expected, which has caused further erosion in liquidity available to repay maturing obligations and meet lending commitments," said Standard & Poor's credit analyst Rian M. Pressman, CFA. In particular, although the FDIC is still considering its application, CIT has thus far not been granted access to TLGP funding.

Moreover, there has been relatively limited benefit from transfers of loans to CIT Bank. We believe this has reduced CIT's funding flexibility and forced it to increase its reliance on less-attractive funding sources, including secured borrowings and net portfolio run-off.

Even if CIT is ultimately accepted into the TLGP, the degree to which it might benefit is uncertain. Any issuance amount is at the FDIC's discretion and could be less than the $10 billion that the company would have been able to issue if it had been a BHC as of October 2008.

We also believe that the transfer of assets to CIT Bank has thus far yielded only limited benefits for the company's funding profile. To date, CIT has received permission (from the Federal Reserve via a waiver of 23A) to transfer only $5.7 billion in government-guaranteed student loans to CIT Bank. We are unclear as to how receptive regulators are to additional transfers and at what pace those transfers might occur.

The commercial banking strategy also depends on CIT Bank's ability to obtain additional brokered deposits and diversify into alternative deposit types, including retail. Although CIT Bank has had some success in raising brokered deposits, its deposit-raising potential is untested. (untested: un garbato eufemismo per dire che che i risparmiatori non hanno depositi in CIT bank, anche perché per attirare depositi ci vogliono gli sportelli).

We believe that deposits will have to be significantly higher than current levels ($3 billion at March 31, 2009) and more diversified in terms of product to materially benefit CIT's funding profile. We regard brokered deposits as a less-stable funding source than deposits obtained through a retail branch network, because they are more sensitive to pricing variations, and as a result tend to be less sticky.

CIT's diminished funding flexibility has forced it to rely increasingly on loan portfolio net runoff and secured borrowings. CIT's position as a prominent middle-market lender is likely to erode if it is unable to rely on
unsecured funding. Moreover, we expect CIT to continue to use its unencumbered assets to support additional secured financings if it is unable to access TLGP and move additional assets to CIT Bank.

Although not the primary driver, deteriorating asset quality and our expectation for continuing operating losses through the first half of 2010 contributed to this rating action.

Quarterly net losses, diminished financial flexibility, and the lack of a common equity dividend make a deferral more likely and justify the four-notch differential between the rating on CIT's hybrid capital instruments
(CCC+/Watch Neg/--) and the long-term counterparty credit rating. We also believe there is a heightened risk of conversion to common equity for CIT's outstanding preferred stock instruments, although management has given no indication that it is contemplating such a move.

The CreditWatch Negative listing reflects our belief that CIT's funding and liquidity position will deteriorate prospectively to a level inconsistent with the rating if it is unable to benefit from the TLGP and additional
transfers of assets to CIT Bank. Our review will ascertain the ultimate benefit CIT can derive from these initiatives.

In addition, we will review whether the current and prospective level of balance-sheet encumbrance reduces the security available to support unsecured bond holders, thus warranting a one-notch downgrade of CIT's unsecured debt relative to the long-term counterparty credit rating.

If CIT's liquidity position and funding costs benefit materially from these initiatives, we will remove the CreditWatch Negative listing and affirm the ratings within 90 days
 
E anche Fitch abbatte il rating di Cit Group a livelli molto bassi, lo tiene in creditwatch negativo e fa presente che se non arriva in tempi molto brevi una risposta positiva alla richiesta di ammissione al TLGP da parte della FDIC, abbatterà nuovamente il rating a livelli tali da significare la reale possibilità di un default in tempi contenuti.

Della serie: il tempo per le dicisioni è maturo...

Fitch Downgrades CIT's IDR to 'BB-

08 Jul 2009 1:27 PM (EDT)
Fitch Ratings-New York-08 July 2009: Fitch Ratings has downgraded the Long-term Issuer Default Ratings (IDR) of CIT Group Inc. (CIT) and subsidiaries to 'BB- ' from 'BB+'. Concurrent with this action, Fitch has upgraded CIT's Support Rating to '3' from '5', reflecting Fitch's view that there is a moderate probability of support from the U.S. government. In addition, Fitch lowered the Individual Rating to 'E' from 'D', which indicates CIT either requires or is likely to require external support. In Fitch's rating criteria, a bank's standalone risk is reflected in Fitch's Individual Ratings while the prospect of external support is reflected in Fitch's Support Rating. Collectively these ratings drive Fitch's long- and short-term IDRs. All ratings remain on Rating Watch Negative. A complete list of issuer and issue ratings is included at the end of this release; approximately $35 billion of debt is affected by today's action.

CIT recently converted to a bank holding company and much of its efforts to date in 2009 have been focused on shifting its business from the holding company to its bank subsidiary, largely to broaden available funding options to include insured deposits.

That said, CIT remains heavily reliant on wholesale funding amidst challenging market conditions. CIT's application for funding under the FDIC's Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP) remains active, but has not yet received approval.

Fitch is maintaining CIT on Watch Negative pending resolution of CIT's TLGP application. If CIT's application is not approved over the very short term, Fitch would likely lower CIT's ratings to levels that would indicate that default is a real possibility. Conversely, if the company's TLGP application is approved and CIT is able to issue FDIC guaranteed debt, Fitch believes the near-term liquidity pressures could be addressed, allowing CIT to execute on its ongoing business plan. In addition to TLGP, Fitch expects that CIT will look to complete remaining 23A transfers (asset sales from CIT Group to CIT Bank, requiring regulatory approval) and write future financing business out of its bank subsidiary.

CIT's funding profile is its most immediate challenge, however, it is also suffering to a lesser extent from the weakened economic environment and consequent asset quality deterioration, including higher credit losses.

Assuming the funding profile is addressed, longer-term, potential improvements to the company's ratings will depend on a moderation of credit losses, further strengthening of the company's capital base, accessibility to non-government guaranteed funding, and generation of sustained profitability.

Today's rating action reflects that, absent external support, CIT's franchise value and client confidence could quickly erode and jeopardize CIT's long-term viability. The upgrade of the Support Rating to a '3' reflects Fitch's view that the probability that support will be forthcoming is considered moderate (not certain).

The downgrade of the company's Individual Rating to 'E ' denotes a bank with very serious problems, which either requires or is likely to require external support. Taken together, Fitch's actions on CIT's Support and Individual Ratings results in the company's Long-term IDR set at the minimum rating 'BB- ', which is Fitch's Support Floor, or the minimum rating for an entity of a Support Rating of '3' and indicates the rating is reliant on government support.

CIT, a bank holding company with $75.7 billion in assets and $4.3 billion in equity, provides financing to a variety of industries such as transportation, aerospace, rail, and a broad range of manufacturing and retailing sectors. CIT Bank, CIT's primary bank subsidiary and state chartered bank, primarily originates middle market, commercial loans to the wholesaling, healthcare, communications, media and entertainment and various service-related industries.

Fitch has downgraded the following ratings, which remain on Watch Negative

......
 

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