Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate SNS Reeal in diretta: storia di un esproprio - Notizie, informazioni e commenti

Quante SNS T1 + Lt2 Nominale Sub oggetto del furto avete in portafoglio

  • 10k

    Votes: 19 12,8%
  • 20k

    Votes: 8 5,4%
  • 30k

    Votes: 3 2,0%
  • 50k

    Votes: 39 26,2%
  • 75k

    Votes: 6 4,0%
  • 100k

    Votes: 18 12,1%
  • 150k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 200k

    Votes: 13 8,7%
  • 300k

    Votes: 17 11,4%
  • 500k+

    Votes: 9 6,0%

  • Total voters
    149
Scioccato, allibito cosi dice il presidente della VEB, Associazione degli Investitori

Secondo me e' facile che qualcuno fara' causa allo Stato Olandese..

SNS Nationalized in Netherlands After Real Estate Losses


By Maud van Gaal & Martijn van der Starre - Feb 1, 2013 1:23 PM GMT


The Netherlands moved to take control of SNS Reaal NV (SR) after real estate losses brought the fourth- largest Dutch lender to the brink of collapse, the country’s second banking nationalization since 2008.
The move, aimed “at stabilizing the SNS Reaal group,” will cost taxpayers 3.7 billion euros ($5 billion), the Dutch Finance Ministry said in a statement today. SNS’s property- finance unit will be separated from the company.


“I scrutinized all alternative solutions involving market parties,” Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem said. “Last night I found myself compelled to conclude no acceptable total solution was offered. I therefore had to use the instrument of last resort, which is nationalization.”
The lender, which acquired ABN Amro Holding NV’s property- finance unit in 2006, has been hurt by losses on real estate loans that have left it struggling to repay a government bailout before next year’s deadline and bolster capital buffers. The nationalization includes issued shares, core Tier 1 capital securities and subordinated bonds, the ministry said.
‘Burden Sharing’

“Shocked, stunned, those are a few words that come to mind,” said Jan Maarten Slagter, chairman of Dutch investor group VEB in an interview in The Hague. “We support the principle of burden sharing, that comes with taking investment risks as a shareholder or subordinated bond holder. This however is a state intervention that interferes with that idea.” It should face an independent legal test, he said.
SNS shares were suspended in Amsterdam. They last traded yesterday at 84 cents, valuing the company at 242 million euros, and have declined 57 percent in the past year. The shares were sold for 17 euros in SNS Reaal’s 2006 initial public offering.
Prices of junior bonds of SNS Reaal plunged. SNS’s 250 million euros of 6.258 percent Tier 1 perpetual notes were quoted 25 euro cents, or 61 percent, lower at 15.5 cents as of 11:10 a.m. in London, according to Bloomberg prices.
Dijsselbloem said that while the government will “expropriate” SNS equity and subordinated debt, senior bondholders won’t be affected. Senior bonds were quoted higher.
Trading in all securities is suspended on regulated markets, said Martijn Pols, a spokesman for Dutch financial markets regulator AFM in Amsterdam. It’s possible that over-the- counter transactions are still taking place, he said. Trading in securities that weren’t expropriated will resume at a later time, he said.
Fortis, ABN

The nationalization comes less than five years after the Netherlands bought Fortis’s Dutch banking and insurance units and its stake in ABN Amro Holding NV for 16.8 billion euros when the company ran out of short-term funding, customers withdrew deposits and investors lost confidence. The government also provided aid to ING Groep NV (INGA), the biggest Dutch financial- services company, and Aegon NV (AGN) at the time.
“It is concerning that about half of the Dutch insurance and banking industry is now state-owned,” said Benoit Petrarque, an Amsterdam-based analyst at Kepler Capital Markets. “That could be a reason for the Netherlands to accelerate some exits.”
The state will inject 2.2 billion euros of capital into SNS Reaal, write down 800 million euros on its earlier aid package and use 700 million euros to put the real estate portfolio at arm’s length.
‘Serious Damage’

“Nationalization would safeguard financial stability and prevent serious damage to the economy,” Dijsselbloem said. “I want the private sector to contribute as much as possible.”
SNS Reaal is the smallest of four Dutch banks designated as “systemically important,” or too big to fail, by the Dutch central bank. It had 32.5 billion euros in savings at the end of the third quarter, according to a Nov. 15 presentation. ING, Rabobank Groep and ABN Amro are its three largest competitors.
Following the financial crisis that led the government to nationalize the Dutch parts of Fortis and ABN Amro and the bankruptcy of DSB Bank NV, the Netherlands adopted legislation allowing it to transfer banks’ assets, liabilities or stock.
The Netherlands will impose a 1 billion-euro one-time levy on Dutch banks in 2014 to share the costs of nationalization. Each lender’s contribution will be proportionate to its share of deposits guaranteed under a plan as of Feb. 1.
ING said it expects a charge of 300 million euros to 350 million euros as a result. Rabobank also said it expects to pay about a third of the 1 billion euros, while ABN Amro sees an impact of 200 million euros to 250 million euros, according to statements today.
Share Losses

Dijsselbloem, appointed chairman of euro-finance meetings last month, advocates introducing European Union-wide rules allowing all bond holders to share in losses when a bank fails. Senior bondholders in SNS were safeguarded from expropriation.
“So far, nowhere in the euro area have unsecured creditors of systemically important banks been forced to contribute to a lender’s rescue,” Dijsselbloem said in a letter to Parliament. “If the Netherlands had made an exception to this nationally, financing costs for other banks could have risen significantly according to the central bank.”
Almost half of Dutch lenders’ market funding, or more than 400 billion euros, consists of senior unsecured debt, Dijsselbloem said.
‘Negative Effect’

The move will temporarily have a “negative effect on funding costs for Dutch banks,” Albert Ploegh, an Amsterdam- based analyst at ING, said in a note to investors. Ploegh has a sell recommendation on SNS.
SNS Chief Executive Officer Ronald Latenstein, Chief Financial Officer Ference Lamp and supervisory board Chairman Rob Zwartendijk stepped down, Utrecht, Netherlands-based SNS said in a separate statement today. The “reason for this decision is that they don’t want to and can’t take responsibility for the nationalization scenario,” SNS said.
Achmea BV CFO Gerard van Olphen will succeed Latenstein today, the Dutch insurer said.
SNS’s core Tier 1 capital ratio, a measure of financial strength, fell to 7.67 percent at the end of the year, below the European Banking Authority’s 9 percent minimum, as risk-weighted assets and loan losses in the property-finance unit increased.
“The state will not be amused realizing that even now that they have intervention laws the taxpayer still has to put money on top,” Kepler’s Petrarque said.
To contact the reporters on this story: Maud van Gaal in Amsterdam at [email protected]; Martijn van der Starre in Amsterdam at [email protected]
To contact the editors responsible for this story: Frank Connelly at [email protected]; Mariajose Vera at [email protected]
 
Ultima modifica:
Abbiamo perso tutto l'investimento,le banche venderanno i titoli a 0,e accrediteranno la Minus.

Attenzione in Popolare mi dicono che il titolo " è uscito dalla disponibilità dell'obbligazionista a seguito dell'esproprio" (traduzione da atto del governo olandese). Insomma come se fosse stato "rubato"!
Ora studiano come recuperare la minus; senza una vendita o il traferimento in altro deposito non è semplice....
 
Abbiamo perso tutto l'investimento,le banche venderanno i titoli a 0,e accrediteranno la Minus.

Quello che è assurdo è che se una banca o un'emittente fallisce,l'investitore vede i prezzi scendere fino a 1(gm),qui ieri la Lt2 si vendeva a 79,25(ne ho venduti 50k,su 100k che ne avevo),quindi nessuno aveva il sentore di prendere 0 il giorno dopo.

Questo è successo con Lb ma li è saltato uttto compreso i senior

la cosa che fa incavolare è che a questo punto non è più una questione di prezzo.. I ragionamenti che facciamo, anche nell'epopea dei ggb, era che fosse tutta una questione di prezzi: entrando a prezzi bassi si riusciva a contenere il rischio. Con un'azione così da un giorno all'altro anche questo perde di significato.
 
Abbiamo perso tutto l'investimento,le banche venderanno i titoli a 0,e accrediteranno la Minus.

Quello che è assurdo è che se una banca o un'emittente fallisce,l'investitore vede i prezzi scendere fino a 1(gm),qui ieri la Lt2 si vendeva a 79,25(ne ho venduti 50k,su 100k che ne avevo),quindi nessuno aveva il sentore di prendere 0 il giorno dopo.

Questo è successo con Lb ma li è saltato uttto compreso i senior

credo che chi ci è passato ha apprezzato le analogie con lehman della giornata odierna.
quanto alle minus voglio vedere quello che succede.noi non possiamo movimentare tanto meno la banca,dobbiamo aspettare che ci vengano prelevate dal conto quando lo stato olandese perfezionerà l'esproprio.allora si creeranno minus,credo
 
Abbiamo perso tutto l'investimento,le banche venderanno i titoli a 0,e accrediteranno la Minus.

Quello che è assurdo è che se una banca o un'emittente fallisce,l'investitore vede i prezzi scendere fino a 1(gm),qui ieri la Lt2 si vendeva a 79,25(ne ho venduti 50k,su 100k che ne avevo),quindi nessuno aveva il sentore di prendere 0 il giorno dopo.

Questo è successo con Lb ma li è saltato uttto compreso i senior

scusa top lo scrivi perchè lo sai.. o perchè lo pensi
 
Una domanda banalissima, ma se uno non fosse ancora in valuta oggi con i titoli cambirebbe qualcosa? se l'esproprio è oggi ma la valuta fosse lunedi.....................
 
Segnalo questa risposta presente sul sito SNS REAAL (traduzione con google) dalla quale sembra che ci potrebbe essere una qualche forma di compensazione per i detentori di titoli subordinati:

SNS REAAL genationaliseerd - REAAL

What does this mean for my SNS Participation certificates?

The Ministry of Finance has decided to subordinated bonds issued by SNS Bank to expropriate. The SNS Participation certificates are also included here. This decision is not a fee established for the holders of subordinated bonds and therefore not for the SNS Participation Certificates. The Act contains a compensation procedure in the Enterprise Chamber of the Amsterdam Court. What the outcome will be, we can not say. However, the Minister has the new management of SNS REAAL asked for an investigation into the situation of the SNS Participation Certificates to adjust and if necessary a compensation proposal. At this moment we can not give more information.
 
Esperimenta in corpore vivi

Ne parlavo un momento fa con un collega forummaro :bow:

Nel mezzo dei vari pensieri non lucidi ("chi sono, dove sono, quando sono assente di me?" si chiede il Maestro), uno mi sembra il meno balzano .

Per me stanno facendo un esperimento su un caso concreto.
Loro dicono : dobbiamo tutelare i risparmiatori (elettori), per noi vale tutto zero (mentre i senior li valutiamo a 100).

Dite che non va bene ? Bene, fateci causa, se le cose stanno come dite voi ci adegueremo (e, si adegueranno anche i risparmiatori-elettori): noi abbiamo fatto il possibile.


Avrei da dire altre cose, ma non so quanto siano sensate al momento.
 

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