Titoli di Stato area Euro GRECIA Operativo titoli di stato - Cap. 1 (2 lettori)

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METHOS

Forumer storico
Perchè se lasciano fallire in questo momento la Grecia allora siamo solo all'inizio....

Quoto in toto il tuo intervento. Il problema non è tanto la grecia se sia fallita o no. La greci è fallita dal giorno in cui non ha più potuto emettere, così come l'irlanda e il portogallo.

Il problema è: la cura adottata sta funzioanndo oppure no? E' necessario migliorarla, aspettare dando tempo prima di staccare la spina? E sopratutto è necessario fare ogni sofrozo per non lasciar morire il paziente?

Io direi di sì. La cura adottata qualche frutto l'ha dato. Ci vuole molto più tempo del previsto com'èra ovvio e qualche intervento ulteriore. Anche se ci volessero 10 anni c'è una soluzione migliore?

Direi di no. L'irlanda sta dando sintomi di guarigione, forse il portogallo potrebbe riprendersi. Buttiamo tutto all'aria lasciando cadere la grecia?

L'effetto domino sarà impressionante se sarà lascita cadere la grecia e i danno multipli di quei 200 mld o più che servono per tenere in piedi quel paese.
In un giorno la borsa ha perso 140 mld per le dimissioni di Stark, figuriamoci cosa accadrà quando tutta la liquidità sarà congelata e le banche incominceranno a cadere come mosche.

Ci saranno giorni da incubo. Perchè è questo che ccadrà se la grecia cadrà.
 

russiabond

Il mito, la leggenda.
Il senso del nuovo switch ...è questo ...perchè andare a rischiare 23 mesi ...per avere 260-280k € se posso tra 6 mesi averne 100-110K€ ..

metabolizzato che a questo giro non la fanno saltare ...che parte lo swap..

meglio incassare subito i primi bond in scadenza ....prima che arrivino i dati del 1° trimestre 2012...e uscire via...al più presto ...

tanto con questo casino...prezzi da urlo li trovi in parecchie obbligazioni ...certo non come la Grecia ...

ma se tra 6 mesi ho 110k in tasca meglio pochi maledetti e subito ...

con i liquidi vai dove vuoi e fai quel che vuoi ...;)
 
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StockExchange

Forumer storico
Il senso del nuovo switch ...è questo ...perchè andare a rischiare 23 mesi ...per avere 260-280k € se posso tra 6 mesi averne 100-110K€ ..

metabolizzato che a questo giro non la fanno saltare ...che parte lo swap..

meglio incassare subito i primi bond in scadenza ....prima che arrivino i dati del 1° trimestre 2012...e uscire via...al più presto ...

tanto con questo casino...prezzi da urlo li trovi in parecchie obbligazioni ...certo non come la Grecia ...

ma se tra 6 mesi ho 110k in tasca meglio pochi maledetti e subito ...

con i liquidi vai dove vuoi e fai quel che vuoi ...;)

:up:
Avere il calendario delle comunicazioni ufficiali dei dati macro della Grecia in questa vicenda è più importante del calendario con le trimestrali in borsa.
Appena esce uno straccio di dato, se ti va bene perdi solo 5 figure...:wall:
 

g.ln

Triplo Panico: comprare
switch

Secondo me al 90% ancora ce la fanno per questo giro...
io credo che puntino allo swap per salvare il culo alle Banche ..
quindi ...anticiperò il mercato per puntare al 3/12 massimo 5/12 ...oltre la vedo dura ...
praticamente mi giro di nuovo per restare sulle brevissime ...secondo me ripeto fino a li ce la fanno ...e si porta di corsa senza esitazione a casa il gain ...probabilmente la settimana buona è questa ...ripeto anticiperò il mercato con tutti i rischi ...avendo appena switchato dalle 5/12 a 71 circa per le 8/13 a 55 ....
le marzo - maggio 2012 ...ripeto dovrebbero salvarsi oltre ...non vorrei mettere più nulla ...forse lascio le 20k 8/12 per scommessa...:lol:
......poi salteranno
:up:

:ciao: Ciao Russia, comprendo il tuo ragionamento. Ma con i volumi scarsissimi, certo che ci vorrà un po' di tempo a switchare centinaia di k???
Io sono un po' più fiducioso nel salvataggio della Grecia nel lungo termine, ma visti i prezzi relativi di venerdì, qualche accorciamento nel 2014 lo sto facendo.
Ciao e buona Domenica a te e a tutti i possessori di titoli greci,
Giuseppe
 

giub

New Membro
Why is the West bankrupt?


By Laurence Copeland. Laurence Copeland is a professor of finance at Cardiff University Business School and a co-author of “Verdict on the Crash” published by the Institute of Economic Affairs.


The opinions expressed are his own.
The UK, USA, the PIIGS (Ireland and Italy are together in the same stye), France is in poor fiscal shape – OK, Germany is ostensibly living within its means, but it looks a lot less solvent when you remember that it has underwritten the rest of the euro zone (in large part, to protect its own irresponsible banks). In any case, as I have argued in previous blogs, this or a future German Government is likely to cave in to the pressure from its own electorate and from inflationist economists at home and abroad to join the party and spend, spend, spend. Only Australia and Canada, riding high on the commodities price boom, and a handful of small countries, look stable.
Where will it all end?
With inflation, almost certainly, but beyond that, it is hard to say. However, there is one prediction I would offer for the medium to long term outcome, and it applies not only to the euro zone, but to Britain and America too – in fact to the whole of the comfortable, complacent industrialised world – and it is this.
We are living through the death throes of an ideal, a dream which has turned into a nightmare – it is the end of the social democratic welfare model.
I am referring to the whole panoply of benefits (entitlements, as they are called in America), labour market regulations (employment protection, minimum wage legislation, limits on the length of the working week etc. etc.) and other social democratic devices intended to inflate like airbags to protect us all from shocks from any possible direction. The whole edifice built up in Western countries to shelter us from the need to earn a living is now clearly unsustainable. We can no longer afford a regime which allowed, indeed encouraged us to live permanently beyond our means both as individuals and as a society.
Two aspects of the current crisis make this apparent. First, and most obviously, we are all more or less like Greece – our debts may be proportionately smaller, but they are still crippling. Our pensions regime may be less egregiously wasteful than Greece’s, but they are still more generous than we can afford. As for healthcare and care for the aged, they are a crippling burden and demographic pressures will make them impossible for any country to sustain at anything like present levels.
Of course, in principle, we can choose any level of welfare we want, provided we are willing to pay for it. In Southern Europe, the prosperous middle class are honestly dishonest about contributing – in other words, they simply evade the tax, voting with their wallets against the regime. In respectable North European countries, people cannot evade tax, so they avoid it instead.
Now what is often forgotten is that, for economic purposes, tax avoidance is not restricted to complex schemes involving tax havens and obscure loopholes in the tax code. The simplest, most popular and most damaging tax avoidance scheme is simply to drop out of the labour force, pleading sickness, taking early retirement or straightforwardly going on the dole. Failing that, there are plenty of jobs for people with the right skills in sunny Australia. In most of the rich countries, more than one in three of the working-age population is already outside the labour force i.e. neither in employment nor currently looking for a job, a percentage which tends to rise at times like the present, where there are fewer and fewer jobs which can compete with the benefits on offer to those who don’t work. In particular, recessions magnify the discouraged worker phenomenon which results when high marginal taxes – sky-high when they take the form of means-tested benefit withdrawal, as they do for those caught in the poverty trap – meet decreasing demand for labour.
On unchanged policies, the number of workers left to carry the burden of the welfare state will decrease even further, just at the time when they are most needed. We might just about have been able to stretch matters for another decade or two before the system collapsed, if globalisation had not brought us suddenly into head-on competition with two billion Asian workers who may be less productive, but are willing to sell their labour for a fraction of our wages, without the promise of a month’s paid holiday, nor social security of any kind, nor limits on their working week, with minimal intervention from local health and safety officials (if there are any) and so little employment protection that their bosses enjoy more or less complete freedom to hire-and-fire at will.
Of course, nobody is suggesting that we should reduce our standards to those of the Third World. But the future is almost certainly going to involve a gradual raising of welfare standards in the emerging economies and a gradual reduction in ours, thereby preserving some sort of competitive equilibrium. By far the most efficient way to achieve this outcome is for Government to shrink its role drastically, leaving employers and workers to strike their own deals on pensions, healthcare, paid holidays, hours in the working week, and so on and so forth.
In other words, instead of holding a political auction to decide on the level of benefits people should get – and then finding they are unwilling to pay for it – we need to let individuals in the labour market decide how much they are willing to pay (in reduced wages) for each additional benefit – something which only happens to a small extent today.
Of course, as every politician knows, benefits are always popular and the beneficiaries are as unlikely to vote for limits on them as are turkeys to vote for Christmas. On the contrary, their votes are for sale – as long as any change brings more benefit than it adds to your tax bill, it is irrational to vote against, so the welfare state creates its own ever-growing electoral clientele.
Reversing this process will be painful because the expansion of state responsibility over so many aspects of our lives in recent decades has gone hand-in-hand with a diminution in personal responsibility – after all, responsibility is a zero-sum game. When people have got used to the idea that they are no longer held responsible for their health, their financial solvency, their housing, their own or their children’s education, they start to disown responsibility for everything – they look for someone else to carry the can even when the state is either unwilling or unable.
No wonder we see the same phenomenon even in areas where money is not directly involved. Thieves and murderers take to crime because the System (presumably, the Government) has failed them. Football hooligans run amok because they are provoked by the players (who must be punished accordingly). If I am overweight, it is because wicked TV advertisers tempted me with junk food (but if I am anorexic, it’s because they persuaded me to starve myself). And addiction is a very helpful excuse too. If I drink too much, or gamble, or take narcotics, or spend all day playing video games, it’s the addiction to blame – not me. The history books need to be rewritten: Don Juan was actually a sex-addict and poor Genghis Khan was a helpless rape-and-pillage addict!
It will be a long difficult painful process back to the default position of our Victorian ancestors, which was that our fate is (or should be) in our own hands. To get back to sanity will require political courage in the coming years, because the economic and social stress will test democracies to the absolute limit and we know from ‘Yes, Minister’ that in the politicians’ dictionary courageous is a synonym for foolhardy.
 

giub

New Membro

Who Thinks Greece Will Default This Weekend?

Not Me!! I base that on the yields of very short term Greek T-Bills, which actually retreated this week, not withstanding the record wides in the Greek Sovereign CDS, which currently stands at 3188 and prices in nearly a 95% chance of default.


GREEK 3 MONTH BILLS



GREEK 6 MONTH BILLS

Having said that, all is certainly not well. Friday was the deadline for participants in the Greek debt swap to indicate whether they would participate, and rumours are that the participation rate is under the 90% Greece demanded (see below). As you may recall, this debt swap gives participants a qualified ~20% haircut. Now, Greece has a debt/GDP ratio of between 125 and 150%, depending on who you read. A 20% haircut would leave them with a ratio between 100 and 120%. Clearly, this is still not sustainable in an economy that is shrinking at an annualized rate of 8%! For Greece to arrive at a potentially sustainable ratio of 60%, holders of Greek debt need to take a haircut of between 52 and 60%!! I would suspect the latter figure is more accurate, giving a recovery rate of 40% on the debt.


Debt Swap Participation Rate Below State's Target


Further issues arose last week with short term funding of Greece's debt, as detailed in the article below. It will almost certainly be an event like this that brings this matter to its only logical conclusion - a hard Greek default!


Prospect of empty coffers looms large
"The prospect of a freeze in payments appeared even more serious on Thursday, after Greek commercial banks failed to cover the sum of 300 million euros of supplementary, noncompetitive bids for Tuesday’s auction of [6 month] T-bills, providing only 155 million. The shortfall is interpreted as a clear message by banks to the government that they are unwilling to fund future issues of T-bills."


There was also noise about whether some of the Greek state owned corporations whose debt is guaranteed by Greece could wind up triggering an acceleration of payment event for GGB's. The matter arose regarding the debt of Hellenic Railways, whose bonds apparently contain language implying that Greece's starting negotiations with creditors could allow Hellenic bondholders to demand immediate repayment of bonds (acceleration). The negotiations in question would, of course, be the proposed debt swap. In this instance, GGB's themselves would not trigger a credit event, but acceleration of state-guaranteed non-government debt would, as Greece may not be able to pay. The link below explains that an acceleration in the Hellenic Railways bond themselves would not trigger a CDS event for Greece, although it could start a cascade of cross-defaults that could lead to that if Greece cannot pay.​
Has Hellenic Railways triggered a Greek moratorium? asks Alphaville


Finally, we have the resignation of Jurgen Stark from the ECB, apparently because he disagrees with the ECB's emerging policy of purchasing peripheral government bonds. IMO, this could be short term bullish for peripheral government debt, as it signals that the ECB plans to do more of the same, perhaps on a larger scale. Of course, this could get interesting, as the ECB is currently mandated to sterilize purchases in order to avoid inflation. In other words, they are constrained from outright debt monetization. Of course, that could change if things get bad enough. For now, however, the bigger question for me is whose bonds the ECB would sell in order to sterilize their peripheral purchases? German bunds?

My next post will give some technically based support to this idea that we are closer to some kind a short term rebound than a catastrophic plunge come next week. To be clear, when Greece does default, I do expect a plunge. I do not think it is fully priced in at all.​
 

Andre_Sant

Forumer storico
Greek pledges to meet fiscal targets amid protests

By NICHOLAS PAPHITIS, The Associated Press Updated 2:56 PM Saturday, September 10, 2011 THESSALONIKI, Greece —

Greece's government will meet ambitious savings targets this year despite a deepening recession, the prime minister said Saturday, to secure the continued flow of international rescue loans that are protecting debt-crippled Greece from a catastrophic bankruptcy.
As George Papandreou delivered his annual, keynote speech on the economy in Greece's second-largest city of Thessaloniki, police on the streets outside clashed with violent demonstrators as more than 25,000 people — from taxi-drivers to sports fans — joined a wave of anti-austerity protests.
Two people were arrested and nearly 100 people detained, police said, while at least two demonstrators were injured during the clashes in the northern port city.
"We will push through all the major changes our country has needed for years," Papandreou said in a nationally televised address. "And we will take whatever other decisions are needed, we will do whatever is necessary to keep the country on its feet."
Papandreou added that his main concern was to keep the country solvent.
"We don't have the right to abandon this effort halfway through," he said. "Because if it remains half-done, (our) sacrifices will have been in vain."
Papandreou's Socialist government has imposed painful austerity measures over the past 20 months — cutting pensions and salaries while raising taxes and retirement ages — to secure vital international rescue loans worth euro219 billion ($302.6 billion). But its efforts to economize while reviving a fast-contracting economy amid record unemployment have faltered, sparking new market distress.
Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos, who was forced to deny rumors of impending bankruptcy over the weekend, said earlier that the economy is expected to contract more than 5 percent this year — considerably exceeding forecasts. But Papandreou insisted that this would not derail the savings drive, which is meant to cut budget overspending from 10.5 to 7.5 percent of gross domestic product this year.
"Even if the recession is significantly deeper than forecast ... Greece will achieve its fiscal targets, doing everything it must to that purpose," he said. "At the point the eurozone and the international financial system have reached right now, any delay, any ambiguity, any option other than to faithfully honor our commitments is dangerous for our country and its citizens."
Several thousand taxi drivers protesting new licensing reforms launched a chain of separate marches, chanting anti-government slogans. Members of the country's two biggest labor unions, university students, anarchists — and even fans of a soccer club — joined in.
The default rumors, combined with the sudden resignation of senior European Central Bank official Juergen Stark, created new market fears that sent yields on Greek 10-year bonds surging to 21 percent. Greece has the worst credit rating in the world, just shy of default.
But Venizelos insisted Saturday the country could still pull through.
"Whoever believes that Greece has been broken or has no hope is clearly out of touch with reality," he said. "The two coming months are crucial for the very existence of our country. These are two months whose every day counts as a year in terms of effort."
By the end of October, Greece has to conclude talks on a complex bond swap deal under which private holders of its debt — mostly banks and pension funds — will take a loss on their holdings in return for new, more secure bonds.
It must also persuade the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, which are providing the bailout loans, that it is making sufficient progress with fiscal discipline, reforms and privatizations. If Athens fails in that, the country will not receive the next euro8 billion ($11 billion) batch of its loans, and will go bankrupt within weeks.
"The clearest message Greece is sending at this point ... is that we are absolutely determined, without taking any momentary political cost into account, to fully meet our obligations to our partners," Venizelos insisted.
Elected two years ago with a 10 percent margin, Papandreou's Socialists have seen their ratings fade as the cutbacks soared. A poll in the Sunday edition of Kathimerini newspaper shows the opposition conservatives 4 percentage points ahead, 32 percent to 28 percent, but also forecast a hung parliament if elections were held now. The Public Issue poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 2.9 percent.
Under the previous conservative government, Greece falsified some of its financial data to hide the true extent of the country's debt problems.
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September 10, 2011 06:53 PM EDT

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la dichiarazione è incoraggiante !
e segue la logica.
Ora è chiaro che la palla è in mano all'europa. Da atene c'ètutta la volontà di proseguire, sia con lo swap, sia con i pagamenti, sia con qualsiasi riforma gli venga richiesta

ciao
Andrea
 

sebonweb

una ragione di piu'
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