Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (6 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione negusneg
- Data di Inizio
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- Tags
- additional tier 1 bail in basilea 3 coco bonds crd iv genussscheine grandfathering hybrid bond loss absorption lower tier 2 make whole amount matusalem bond obbligazioni irredimibili obbligazioni perpetue obbligazioni subordinate perpetual bond preference shares restricted tier 1 tier 1 upper tier 2
- Stato
ferdo
Utente Senior
Infatti rating rivisto con outlook negativo, non si sa neanche se paga le cedole per i prox 2 anni, anche se si stanno muovendo nell'ultima settimana: il 7 agosto esce la semestrale
Mais78
BAWAG fan club
LONDON, Aug 5 (Reuters) - European banks are readying a return to the subordinated bond market to help repair their balance sheets, aided by an investor rush for fat returns on these high-risk securities.
"We have a number of mandates for new issues in the hybrid space," said Thibaut Adam, head of capital markets structuring at BNP Paribas. "As the market is gradually reopening, issuers are keen to take their turn."
Prices for the riskiest subordinated bank bonds, known as Tier 1, fell off a cliff this year on fears banks, battered by the credit crisis, would not pay coupons or repay the bonds.
There were no new issues of any subordinated bank bonds in the first four months of 2009.
Now the market has started to recover, with total European bank subordinated issuance in euros at 5.5 billion year-to-date. But this is down from 26 billion last year and 54 billion in 2007, according Societe General credit analyst Suki Mann.
So far, few banks have actually skipped coupons or redemptions on these bonds, helping to spur a rally.
"My guess is banks will pay Tier 1 calls (redemptions) because they need to build goodwill among investors to rebuild capital via Tier 1 issuance," said Simon Thorp, head of fixed income at asset manager Liontrust.
Barclays Plc Tier 1 bonds for instance, which sank as low as 10 cents in March, have since rallied to around 55 percent of face value, while UBS AG Tier 1 bonds have quadrupled to 88 percent of face value from 22 cents in March, said Mann.
Some banks, including Barclays, have also bought back or exchanged bombed-out subordinated bonds, often at premiums to market prices, to help repair battered balance sheets.
This has boosted investor confidence and put a floor under the subordinated bond market.
RISK APPETITE
The next stage is likely to be a rush of new issues, after banks including Standard Chartered Plc and Rabobank [RABN.UL] tested investors' risk appetite with such deals. [nLG14099] [ID:nLC816921]
"There is increased confidence among investors towards Tier 1, but banks have to pay up to issue them," said Eleonore Lamberty, credit analyst at ING.
In May, Rabobank sold a 1 billion euro senior bond at a spread of 240 basis points over mid-swaps and a coupon of 5.875 percent. This compared to a coupon of 11 percent on a $1.5 billion Tier 1 bond sold later the same month.
"A lot of the capital raising will be in the Tier 1 universe because Tier 1 capital still provides the highest buffer against future losses," Lamberty said.
After the credit crisis nearly toppled the global banking system, regulators are keen for banks to bolster capital -- such as Tier 1 -- that can absorb losses.
Lamberty also said banks were eager to repay government funds that were injected at the Tier 1 level.
Investors, meanwhile, are ready to buy.
In July, the best bond returns came from subordinated financials in euros, which produced total returns of 9.82 percent compared with 7.56 percent for the S&P 500 index <.SPX>, said Deutsche Bank credit strategist Jim Reid.
STRETCHING FOR YIELD
The rush into corporate credit has seen investors taking on more risk just to stay invested in the asset class in what looks like a return to pre-credit crisis behaviour.
"Not enough investment grade corporate bonds are readily available to meet demand," said Lisa Coleman, head of global credit fixed income at JP Morgan Asset Management.
"The market has been driven by beta and this is seen in investors dipping down in credit quality," Coleman said, referring to investors' hunger to boost yield or "beta".
Before the credit crisis, investors bought bank Tier 1 bonds when they were stretching for yield, she said.
Iain Baillie, head of fixed income at Christopher Street Capital, part of GFI Group, said: "This was one area of the market where liquidity was most impaired at the end of last year ... But now new buyers have got involved."
Other issues have included insurers Prudential Plc , RSA Insurance Group Plc and Legal & General Plc .
"One of the key developments was that private banks were also willing to look at it," said Adam, noting Asian private banks, in particular, had shown a lot of interest in Prudential's Tier 1 issue. (Additional reporting by Natalie Harrison and Jane Baird; Editing by David Holmes)
"We have a number of mandates for new issues in the hybrid space," said Thibaut Adam, head of capital markets structuring at BNP Paribas. "As the market is gradually reopening, issuers are keen to take their turn."
Prices for the riskiest subordinated bank bonds, known as Tier 1, fell off a cliff this year on fears banks, battered by the credit crisis, would not pay coupons or repay the bonds.
There were no new issues of any subordinated bank bonds in the first four months of 2009.
Now the market has started to recover, with total European bank subordinated issuance in euros at 5.5 billion year-to-date. But this is down from 26 billion last year and 54 billion in 2007, according Societe General credit analyst Suki Mann.
So far, few banks have actually skipped coupons or redemptions on these bonds, helping to spur a rally.
"My guess is banks will pay Tier 1 calls (redemptions) because they need to build goodwill among investors to rebuild capital via Tier 1 issuance," said Simon Thorp, head of fixed income at asset manager Liontrust.
Barclays Plc Tier 1 bonds for instance, which sank as low as 10 cents in March, have since rallied to around 55 percent of face value, while UBS AG Tier 1 bonds have quadrupled to 88 percent of face value from 22 cents in March, said Mann.
Some banks, including Barclays, have also bought back or exchanged bombed-out subordinated bonds, often at premiums to market prices, to help repair battered balance sheets.
This has boosted investor confidence and put a floor under the subordinated bond market.
RISK APPETITE
The next stage is likely to be a rush of new issues, after banks including Standard Chartered Plc and Rabobank [RABN.UL] tested investors' risk appetite with such deals. [nLG14099] [ID:nLC816921]
"There is increased confidence among investors towards Tier 1, but banks have to pay up to issue them," said Eleonore Lamberty, credit analyst at ING.
In May, Rabobank sold a 1 billion euro senior bond at a spread of 240 basis points over mid-swaps and a coupon of 5.875 percent. This compared to a coupon of 11 percent on a $1.5 billion Tier 1 bond sold later the same month.
"A lot of the capital raising will be in the Tier 1 universe because Tier 1 capital still provides the highest buffer against future losses," Lamberty said.
After the credit crisis nearly toppled the global banking system, regulators are keen for banks to bolster capital -- such as Tier 1 -- that can absorb losses.
Lamberty also said banks were eager to repay government funds that were injected at the Tier 1 level.
Investors, meanwhile, are ready to buy.
In July, the best bond returns came from subordinated financials in euros, which produced total returns of 9.82 percent compared with 7.56 percent for the S&P 500 index <.SPX>, said Deutsche Bank credit strategist Jim Reid.
STRETCHING FOR YIELD
The rush into corporate credit has seen investors taking on more risk just to stay invested in the asset class in what looks like a return to pre-credit crisis behaviour.
"Not enough investment grade corporate bonds are readily available to meet demand," said Lisa Coleman, head of global credit fixed income at JP Morgan Asset Management.
"The market has been driven by beta and this is seen in investors dipping down in credit quality," Coleman said, referring to investors' hunger to boost yield or "beta".
Before the credit crisis, investors bought bank Tier 1 bonds when they were stretching for yield, she said.
Iain Baillie, head of fixed income at Christopher Street Capital, part of GFI Group, said: "This was one area of the market where liquidity was most impaired at the end of last year ... But now new buyers have got involved."
Other issues have included insurers Prudential Plc , RSA Insurance Group Plc and Legal & General Plc .
"One of the key developments was that private banks were also willing to look at it," said Adam, noting Asian private banks, in particular, had shown a lot of interest in Prudential's Tier 1 issue. (Additional reporting by Natalie Harrison and Jane Baird; Editing by David Holmes)
reef
...
Certo che se vogliono puntare sulla fiducia verso questi strumenti devono "rigare dritto"...
Zorba
Bos 4 Mod
mah.... io mi sono fatto l'idea che DB callerà il perpetual TY34 (call 1/2010). Solo un gut feeling, nessun dato oggettivo... se le cose migliorassero nel 2° semestre sarebbe un messaggio incoraggiante ai mercati da parte della più grande banca europea...
Ultima modifica:
AAAA47
Forumer storico
in effetti questa DB , se veramente si prende a 64 puo' essere interessante
ce ne sono altre che quotano basse, con call vicine?
vedevo anche la postbank DE000A0DHUM0
con call a natale
pero' ammetto la mia totale ignoranza su questi emittenti
negusneg
New Member
Certo che se vogliono puntare sulla fiducia verso questi strumenti devono "rigare dritto"...
Non solo, dovranno anche pagarci bene...
Con le emissioni di bond senior che ci sono sul primario, se vogliono stuzzicare l'appetito cedole del 9-10% mi sembrano davvero il minimo.
Chiedo scusa se sono stato un po' assente negli ultimi giorni, ma ho avuto qualche problema familiare
e credo che per un po' di tempo mi sarà difficile essere presente come prima. Colgo l'occasione per augurare a tutti (quelli che non sono già partiti) buone vacanze e un arrivederci a settembre.Ciao varoon, a questa domanda ci tenevo a rispondere: premesso che sono d'accordo in linea di massima con AAAA47 (non esistono regole precostituite valide per tutti, ognuno deve decidere in base alla propria sensibilità/propensione al rischio/orizzonte temporale, etc.) credo che chi si accosta a questi titoli non debba mai dimenticare due cose:
1) se succede qualcosa all'emittente il capitale è perso;
2) in caso di crisi generale questi sono i titoli meno liquidi del mazzo.
Detto questo, non li ho mai considerati robaccia, ma tenendo SEMPRE a mente questi due punti non ne ho mai posseduti più del 20-25% del portafoglio complessivo, nè ho mai puntato più del 3-4% sul singolo emittente. Forse ho sbagliato (col senno di poi), forse no, visto che ormai ho recuperato tutte le minus dell'anno scorso.
Faccio anche outing, riferendomi ad una "media" di portafogli (il mio è un po' più "sbilanciato"
), con l'avvertenza che nella media ci sono anche persone anziane (o con una bassissima propensione al rischio) che necessariamente abbassano le percentuali, avendo praticamente solo titoli "risk freee":31/12/08:
obbligazioni perpetue 7,40%
convertibili 3,62%
subordinate 5,05%
corporate 11,21%
azioni 14,72%
4/8/09:
obbligazioni perpetue 15,03%
convertibili 5,78%
subordinate 4,85%
corporate 18,92%
azioni 19,55%
Aggiungo che oggi ho "arrotondato" la K8 a 37,30 (verso mezzogiorno, confesso che temevo mi scappasse via
) e di nuovo auguro a tutti buone vacanze.In fondo credo che ce lo meritiamo...
Topgun1976
Guest
AAAA47
Forumer storico
OK, pero' anche a 68-70, la quotazione e' cmq "bassissima" rispetto per esempio ad una lodi, a 75, con call 2015
ora mi dirai che le banche ita sono piu' sicure
ok
ma parliamo di una call tra 5 anni
o una intesa a 90, parliamo comunque di una call tra 2 anni
Una P che quota 68, con call tra 4-5 mesi, potrebbe essere una buona scommessa
che ne pensi?
ciao!
p.s: leggevo ora il post del negus..vorrei dire una cosa al volo
io queste le chiamo robaccia ma in maniera "affettuosa"
mi hanno dato veramente ottime soddisfazioni
- Stato