Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 2 (18 lettori)

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angy2008

Forumer storico
Occhio a scrivere 'ste cose che qui si rischia l'effetto "canarino da richiamo di Filini" alla battuta di caccia :D

Chi ha qualche anno come me si ricorda di certo a cosa mi riferisco:lol:
qua sei classificabile tra i + giovani, io sono nel gruppone dei matusa. Comunque a parte le Opa c'è anche una call su perpetual che certamente tutti noi abbiamo .... sic.... forse no ... speriamo che si comprino anche la Groupama.
La Banque Postale FR0010405761 callata al 12/12
 

Topgun1976

Guest
mediano, farei anche io se avessi qualcosa da vendere o della liquidità

Ok,ma cè roba con cedole 3 volte meglio a prezzi leggermente superiori,gli Irs adesso sono proprio l'ultima ruota del carro.

Cmq non avrei Mai e dico Mai pensato che i Politici Eu(ci metto tutti)fossero cosi Inetti e Stupidi,questi mi ricordano i musicisti che suonano mentre il Titanic và a fondo..col senno di Poi la Crisi del 08-09 era una Bazzeccola
 
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negusneg

New Member
Negus, ragazzi,

vi sembra interessante se cercassimo di updatare il nostro file con i prezzi di OPA di ogni P ?

Come possiamo organizzarci ?

proporrei di introdurre una colonna per indicare se ci sono state delle tender offer e poi creare un file apposito per catalogarle con prezzi e risultati, comunque è un lavorone che non sò se i mitici volontari hanno il tempo x fare. Inoltre ogni giorno diventa + difficile perchè aumenta il numero dei titoli coinvolti.
Ultimamente, specie per i cassettisti, è + importante seguire le tender offer che non le quotazioni.

Ciao maxolone :), sicuramente potrebbe essere utile e interessante, magari anche aggiungendo l'ammontare "outstanding", visto che fra riacquisti sul mercato, tender offer e operazioni varie alcune emissioni sono ormai quasi del tutto illiquide ed è importante saperlo.

Io però da solo non credo di poterlo fare.

Quoto angy2008, si può fare così: aggiungerei una colonna "Oustanding" (col nuovo ammontare rimasto in circolazione) a fianco della colonna "Volume" (col volume originario dell'emissione), dove continuerei a segnalare eventuali riacquisti (con righe verdi orizzontali) o riduzioni del capitale per loss absorption (con righe rosse orizzontali).

Poi alla fine della tabella (verso destra) aggiungerei due nuove colonne, una per le tender e una per le loss, dove specificare le varie operazioni, ad esempio "OPA cash dell'11/11/11, riacquistati 37 mln a 70 + 5 di early tender" o "OPS con lower tier II del 1/1/09 a 64" oppure "capitale ridotto del 14% dal 1/8/10".

Naturalmente mi rendo disponibile ad inserire e tenere aggiornati i dati nella tabella, a patto (come dicevo sopra) che qualcuno mi aiuti, per esempio postandoli in questa discussione. :up:
 
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capt.harlock

MENA IL CAMMELLO FAN CLUB
Ok,ma cè roba con cedole 3 volte meglio a prezzi leggermente superiori,gli Irs adesso sono proprio l'ultima ruota del carro.

Cmq non avrei Mai e dico Mai pensato che i Politici Eu(ci metto tutti)fossero cosi Inetti e Stupidi,questi mi ricordano i musicisti che suonano mentre il Titanic và a fondo..col senno di Poi la Crisi del 08-09 era una Bazzeccola

28,5 sulle baca e'un fuori prezzo
le ing127 sono a 41
le dpb a 40
40% di differenza e' un fuori prezzo (imho)

poi e'vero che in un mercato che vede all'orizzonte la recessione forse sono da preferire le tasso fisso ma..a stare bassi ci sono meno possibilita'di scendere:rolleyes:
quando ad es le bpce 558 erano a 100 le baca erano a 60/65 (un meno 35/40%), adesso sono a 65 e le baca sono a meno 60%circa
 

caligola2005

Forumer attivo
e poi ho letto alcuni msg successivi.
SECONDO ME SU UBI VALE QUESTA NORMA

For an instrument that has a call and a step-up between 12 September 2010 and 1 January 2013 (or another incentive to be redeemed), if the instrument is not called at its effective maturity date and on a forward looking basis does not meet the new criteria for inclusion in Tier 1 or Tier 2, it will be fully derecognised in that tier of regulatory capital from 1 January 2013

MI SEMBRA COSI' CHIARA ED APPLICABILE A TRE TIER1 DI UBI CHE NON RIESCO A CAPIRE UNA DIFFERENTE INTERPRETAZIONE

Ti ricordi qualche particolare in piu' nella discussione avuto con IR di ubi?


ti rispondo in breve:
chiamo ir di ubi chiedendo notizie delle perpetue,affermando che mi ricordavo di aver eltto che dopo l'aumento di capitale avrebebro potuto richiamarle e che non avevo trovato più nulla. Mi dicono che mi avrebbero richiamato. Al pomeriggio mi chiama un altro impiegato e mi spiega che per il momento il discorso richiamo è stato accantonato in quanto non più interessante. Inizia un lungo discorso ( purtroppo ero per strada e sentivo male) spiegandomi che perdendo solo il 20% all'anno non hanno interesse a richiamare entro il 2013. Quando termina faccio presente che esssendo step up, non vi sono dubbi che siano da richiamare; mi risponde che il mio discorso è corretto secondo le prime interpretazioni ma alla luce delle ultime circolari esplicative, non è più così!!! Questo è il succo del discorso.
Mi ha fatto intendere che potrebbe esserci richiamo solo fra 3/4 anni ( in sostanza a metà strada)
 

negusneg

New Member
L'annuncio di Moody's con l'elenco delle banche interessate:

Announcement:
Moody's reviews European banks' subordinated, junior and Tier 3 debt for downgrade


Global Credit Research - 29 Nov 2011
Review focuses on reassessment of government support assumptions

London, 29 November 2011 -- Moody's Investors Service has today placed on review for downgrade all subordinated, junior subordinated and Tier 3 debt ratings of banks in those European countries where the subordinated debt still incorporates some ratings uplift from Moody's assumptions of government support, with the potential complete removal of government support in these ratings. The review will affect 88 banks in 15 countries in Europe with average potential downgrades of subordinated debt by two notches and junior subordinated debt and Tier 3 debt by one notch. The greatest number of ratings to be reviewed are in Spain, Italy, Austria and France. For issuers whose ratings were already under review prior to today's rating action, the completion of the existing review will now incorporate these additional considerations for subordinated, Tier 3 and junior subordinated debt.

Today's rating announcements follow on from the removal of systemic support from subordinated debt in systems including Denmark, UK, Ireland, Germany and Moody's report "Moody's to re-assess government support in bank sub debt ratings globally" published February 2011.

The review has been caused by the rating agency's view that within Europe, systemic support for subordinated debt may no longer be sufficiently predictable or reliable to be a sound basis for incorporating uplift into Moody's ratings.

This concern is driven by (i) the more limited financial flexibility of many European sovereigns that will increasingly be required to make difficult decisions regarding fiscal consolidation policies; and (ii) the resolution frameworks being discussed by both national and supra-national authorities (for example by the European Commission, which is expected to announce its proposals shortly).

The frameworks have the common objective of reducing very significantly the support provided to creditors and leave subordinated debt holders particularly exposed to exclusion from any support received.

During the review period, Moody's will (i) review the outcome of the expected European Commission proposals on bank resolutions and the implications for burden-sharing with subordinated debtholders; and (ii) interact with regulators and authorities to see if there is any additional information that would lead Moody's to maintain an assumption of support in the subordinated debt ratings.

RATINGS RATIONALE

Moody's believes that systemic support for subordinated debt in Europe is becoming ever more unpredictable, due to a combination of anticipated changes in policy and financial constraints. Policy makers are increasingly unwilling and/or constrained in their support for all classes of creditors, in particular for subordinated debt holders. Moody's notes that there have been recent instances where losses have been imposed on subordinated debt holders without any significant contagion to other liability classes (e.g., in Ireland). Consequently, there would need to be very clear reasons for Moody's to consider retaining an assumption of support in subordinated debt ratings.

For some time, the policy debate and framework within Europe has been moving in favour of imposing losses on subordinated debt holders outside of an insolvency scenario. Proposals and legislative changes to permit this include statutory writedown mechanisms, or mechanisms which enable authorities to either transfer debt between institutions or split up a bank and impose losses on subordinated debtholders. Some countries have already changed their legal or regulatory frameworks to incorporate this policy objective (e.g. UK, Denmark, Germany). There have also been cases where an ostensibly supportive legal framework has been quickly changed to an unsupportive framework, following a weakening of the sovereign and banking system (e.g., in Ireland).

Moody's awaits the European Commission's proposed framework on resolution regimes -- originally anticipated this summer but now delayed -- which the rating agency believes is likely to result in an explicitly less supportive framework for subordinated debt across the EU. However, even if there is a further delay in the publication of the framework, Moody's considers the evidence that sovereigns can quickly change the existing legal framework as reason to continue with the review of systemic support in subordinated debt, given the other pressures on sovereigns in the current environment.

Many of the above concerns were already expressed in Moody's February 2011 publication "Supported Bank Debt Ratings at Risk of Downgrade Due to New Approaches to Bank Resolution". Since that publication, however, many euro-area sovereigns have become increasingly constrained in their financial flexibility and consequently in their ability to support their banking systems. In several cases, the sovereign has faced an increasingly stark trade-off between the need to preserve confidence in their banking systems and the need to protect their own balance sheets.

While the need to preserve confidence may imply some continuing (though potentially declining) support for senior debt -- given the potential for contagion across the banking system -- the rationale for continuing to assume the willingness and ability to provide support for subordinated debt holders is much weaker. Moody's has seen clear precedents that losses can be imposed on subordinated debt holders without any significant contagion to other liability classes. Moody's view is that these pressures go beyond the euro area to encompass all EU members; Moody's will also review to what extent other closely integrated markets outside the EU, such as Norway or Switzerland, are affected by this change in its support assumptions.

IMPACT OF REVIEW

The banking systems and number of banks affected by the review are in the following countries: Austria (9), Belgium (3), Cyprus (2), Finland (3), France (8), Italy (17), Luxembourg (3), Netherlands (6), Norway (5), Poland (1), Portugal (2), Slovenia (2), Spain (21), Sweden (4),Switzerland (2). A list of affected institutions is attached: <A href="http://www.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBS_SF268891" target=_blank>http://www.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBS_SF268891

A full analysis of the effect of the review is set out in the Special Comment published today "Reassessment of Government Support Assumptions in European Bank Subordinated Debt". For the latest details on Moody's global approach to incorporating systemic support in Moody's bank debt ratings please see, "Status Report on Systemic Support Incorporated in Moody's Bank Debt Ratings Globally." Both reports were published today and can be found on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets .

The methodologies used in this rating were Moody's Guidelines for Rating Bank Hybrid Securities and Subordinated Debt published in November 2009, and Incorporation of Joint-Default Analysis into Moody's Bank Ratings: A Refined Methodology published in March 2007. Please see the Credit Policy page on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for a copy of these methodologies.

REGULATORY DISCLOSURES

For ratings issued on a program, series or category/class of debt, this announcement provides relevant regulatory disclosures in relation to each rating of a subsequently issued bond or note of the same series or category/class of debt or pursuant to a program for which the ratings are derived exclusively from existing ratings in accordance with Moody's rating practices. For ratings issued on a support provider, this announcement provides relevant regulatory disclosures in relation to the rating action on the support provider and in relation to each particular rating action for securities that derive their credit ratings from the support provider's credit rating. For provisional ratings, this announcement provides relevant regulatory disclosures in relation to the provisional rating assigned, and in relation to a definitive rating that may be assigned subsequent to the final issuance of the debt, in each case where the transaction structure and terms have not changed prior to the assignment of the definitive rating in a manner that would have affected the rating. For further information please see the ratings tab on the issuer/entity page for the respective issuer on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets.

Some of the ratings of entity Caisse C'ale du Credit Immobilier were initiated by Moody's and were not requested by the rated entity.

The rating has been disclosed to the rated entity or its designated agent(s) and issued with no amendment resulting from that disclosure.

Information sources used to prepare the rating are the following : parties involved in the ratings, parties not involved in the ratings, public information, and confidential and proprietary Moody's Investors Service information.

Moody's considers the quality of information available on the rated entity, obligation or credit satisfactory for the purposes of issuing this review.

Moody's adopts all necessary measures so that the information it uses in assigning a rating is of sufficient quality and from sources Moody's considers to be reliable including, when appropriate, independent third-party sources. However, Moody's is not an auditor and cannot in every instance independently verify or validate information received in the rating process.

Moody's Investors Service may have provided Ancillary or Other Permissible Service(s) to the rated entity or its related third parties within the two years preceding the credit rating action. Please see the special report "Ancillary or other permissible services provided to entities rated by MIS's EU credit rating agencies" on the ratings disclosure page on our website Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for further information.

Please see the ratings disclosure page on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for general disclosure on potential conflicts of interests.

Please see the ratings disclosure page on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for information on (A) MCO's major shareholders (above 5%) and for (B) further information regarding certain affiliations that may exist between directors of MCO and rated entities as well as (C) the names of entities that hold ratings from MIS that have also publicly reported to the SEC an ownership interest in MCO of more than 5%. A member of the board of directors of this rated entity may also be a member of the board of directors of a shareholder of Moody's Corporation; however, Moody's has not independently verified this matter.

Please see Moody's Rating Symbols and Definitions on the Rating Process page on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for further information on the meaning of each rating category and the definition of default and recovery.

Please see ratings tab on the issuer/entity page on Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for the last rating action and the rating history. The date on which some ratings were first released goes back to a time before Moody's ratings were fully digitized and accurate data may not be available. Consequently, Moody's provides a date that it believes is the most reliable and accurate based on the information that is available to it. Please see the ratings disclosure page on our website Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for further information.

Please see Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets for any updates on changes to the lead rating analyst and to the Moody's legal entity that has issued the rating.

In addition to the information provided below please find on the ratings tab of the issuer page at Moody's - credit ratings, research, tools and analysis for the global capital markets, for each of the ratings covered, Moody's disclosures on the lead rating analyst and the Moody's legal entity that has issued each of the ratings.





Elisabeth Rudman
Senior Vice President
Financial Institutions Group
Moody's Investors Service Ltd.
One Canada Square
Canary Wharf
London E14 5FA
United Kingdom
JOURNALISTS: 44 20 7772 5456
SUBSCRIBERS: 44 20 7772 5454

Johannes Wassenberg
MD - Banking
Financial Institutions Group
JOURNALISTS: 44 20 7772 5456
SUBSCRIBERS: 44 20 7772 5454

Releasing Office:
Moody's Investors Service Ltd.
One Canada Square
Canary Wharf
London E14 5FA
United Kingdom
JOURNALISTS: 44 20 7772 5456
SUBSCRIBERS: 44 20 7772 5454
 
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