Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 2

[Zorba]

Beati voi che siete tranquilli e sereni

Vorrei far notare che c'e' un testuale di Monti che alla camera ha detto che si ritasseranno i capitali scudati (incostituzionale, ma vabbe') con una percentuale dell'1,5% pari alla nuova imposta di bollo...

O non capisce una mazza (e nel qual caso annamo bene) oppure significa che vogliono mettere l'1,5% annuo su tutta la ricchezza finanziaria italiana bot compresi.

Il delirio

Il prelievo addizionale sui capitali scudati dell' 1,5%
e' sotto forma di imposta di bollo una tantum.

Ops, ho visto solo ora il post del negus. Apologise.

 

[drbs315]

Però, scritto così, non si capisce se l'esito positivo del summit provocherà o eviterà il giudizio negativo....

Rott, devo dire che, avendo letto la news e il testo dei creditw negativi sugli aaa europei da Zh mi è venuta, istintivamente, alla mente la stessa lettura data dalla Reuters che in quel momento non avevo ancora visto; ovvero non un'iniziativa amichevole ma una spinta, comunque, in forma di avvertimento, che l'Europa, per i mercati finanziari, è ormai considerata senza possibilità di eccezioni un tutt'uno e dunque continuare con strategie punitive per gli scolari svogliati e paventate unioni a doppia velocità non darà alcun salvacondotto nemmeno ai primi della classe. Che il totem degli spread sia saltato a piè pari apparentando il creditw della Germania a quello degli altri mortali mi sembra implichi chiaramente questo.

Complessivamente non mi pare un atto di guerra, se letto tra le righe, ma un calcio - fuori tempo e un pò fuori target, come sempre per le agenzie di rating, ma condito da consistente irritazione americana - per spingere il continente in blocco a muoversi senza rinvii ulteriori e tempi biblici. Che effetti possa sortire e quale sarà, in ogni caso, l'esito finale, non lo sappiamo. Ma penso che, oltreatlantico, l'ennesimo chiacchericcio sterile dei Merkozy di oggi non sia stato apprezzato.

Al di là dell'effetto di brevissimo sui mercati non è certo questa iniziativa di S&P che mi preoccupa nè, sinceramente, che mi infastidisce.

 

[drbs315]

Se la spiegazione fosse quella grassettata, perchè il mercato dovrebbe raffreddarsi? E perchè S&P dovrebbe assumersi quel ruolo?
Non vorrei che l'obiettivo fosse esattamente il contrario...

Di fronte ad un creditw negativo "globalizzato" all'intera area euro il raffreddamento del mercato è stato molto molto blando; sul secondo punto, imho, le agenzie di rating arrivano sempre seconde e fungono da "seconde"; leggendo in questi ultimi giorni commenti su numerosi siti finanziari Usa la view di fondo non mi pare disfattista sull'euro, ma profondamente costernata di fronte ad un continente che, pur avendone i mezzi, non riesce a muoversi per disaccordi politici. Il rischio di trovarsi di fronte, con il fine settimana, all'ennesimo rinvio pare concreto, in un contesto in cui, oltretutto, un pò demagogicamente le tare della congiuntura americana vengono fatte risalire alla crisi strutturale del debito europeo.
Credo poco al fatto che le pecche europee servano a coprire magagne anglo-americane nè che il crollo dell'euro sia ciò che serve al debt funding statunitense. Dunque credo poco alle teorie complottiste antieuropee oggi di moda. Che poi hedge&c possano lucrare sulle disgrazie altrui ci sta; ma lì, la cosa, sostanzialmente finisce.

 

[nik.sala]

E come no... e se fosse il 2%? Fra quello e le loss ti tirano a zero tutto con una velocità fulminea.

Beh certo dovrebbe essere ragionevole la cosa.
Claudio, non son mica contento, però se doveva essere fatto (ribadisco il concetto, in linea teorica sarei contrario, visto e considerato che i miei $$$ son già tassati del 50%, sul c.g. verrò tassato del 20% e ora anche questo...per non agigungere altro) doveva essere così sin dall'inizio.
Rideranno loro se, esagerando un'altra volta, lasceremo isoldini a dormire sul c/c

 

[nik.sala]

Beati voi che siete tranquilli e sereni

Vorrei far notare che c'e' un testuale di Monti che alla camera ha detto che si ritasseranno i capitali scudati (incostituzionale, ma vabbe') con una percentuale dell'1,5% pari alla nuova imposta di bollo...

O non capisce una mazza (e nel qual caso annamo bene) oppure significa che vogliono mettere l'1,5% annuo su tutta la ricchezza finanziaria italiana bot compresi.

Il delirio

Claudio,
la tua è la mia preoccupazione.
però son stufo di fasciarmi la testa prima di essermela rotta...aspetto i fatti, poi valuteremo insieme.
p.s. sei telegenico, cmq

 

[saverio1973]

Claudio,
la tua è la mia preoccupazione.
però son stufo di fasciarmi la testa prima di essermela rotta...aspetto i fatti, poi valuteremo insieme.
p.s. sei telegenico, cmq

comunque vorrei porre l'attenzione sul fatto che se applicano 1.5% sui deposito titoli e contente da c/c la manovra non è più da 30 MLD ma passa almeno a 60 MLD e quindi la cosa è sostanzialmente da escludere avendo parlato MONTI di una manovra da 30 MLD circa.

Li sapranno fare i conti spero..

Saluti

 

[9/15]

Chiedo scusa per OT bolli

Probabilmente dirò un'ovvietà, più probabilmente una panzana, ma mi sembrava di aver capito che venisse esteso a tutte le forme di investimento finanziario il bollo su deposito titoli previsti nel precedente decreto del governo B.
Con i vari scaglioni fino 50k, da 50 a 150k, da 150 a 500k, oltre 500k anche su conti, sicav, ecc.
Se fosse così, sarebbe duro ma almeno equo.

 

[solovaloreaggiunto]

Barclays to Buy Back $3.9 Billion of Debt to Bolster Capital
Dec. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Barclays Plc, the U.K.’s second- largest bank by assets, offered to buy back as much as 2.5 billion pounds ($3.9 billion) of securities to improve the quality of the capital it holds.
The lender will offer to buy back the Tier 1 securities for a discount of as much as 30 percent to face value, London-based Barclays said in a statement today.
Barclays is buying back the debt because it will count less towards the highest form of capital when the latest round of rules set by the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision take effect in 2013. Regulators are pressing banks to boost capital, or their ability to absorb losses, to shield taxpayers from the costs of future bailouts. Lloyds Banking Group Plc and BNP Paribas SA have announced similar deals in the past three weeks.
The “offers will enable the issuer to enhance further the quality of its capital structure through the reduction of non- Basel III compliant Tier 1 capital and subsequent generation of additional core Tier 1 capital,” Barclays said in the statement.
Bank of England Governor Mervyn King urged last week lenders to step up efforts to bolster their defenses against the euro area’s debt turmoil, which now looks like a “systemic crisis.”
Lloyds, Britain’s biggest mortgage lender, last week offered to exchange as much as $7.7 billion of capital notes for new bonds to boost capital. The British banks follow lenders including BNP Paribas SA, France’s largest bank, and Spain’s Banco Santander SA in exchanging capital securities for debt.
The pool of debt investors can sell back to the bank includes core Tier-1 notes and reserve capital instruments in both U.S. dollars and British pounds.

 

[fidw99]

andamento spread tier1

.

 

[negusneg]

S&P Jumps Into Politics Again With EU Warning

By John Detrixhe and Zeke Faux - Dec 5, 2011
Standard & Poor’s, rebuked by Warren Buffett in August after downgrading the U.S. over government gridlock, is again injecting itself into the political process, just as European leaders are poised to meet for a summit aimed at ending the region’s sovereign-debt crisis.
The ratings firm put Germany, France and 13 other euro-area nations on review for a downgrade yesterday, saying “continuing disagreements among European policy makers on how to tackle”the region’s debt crisis risk damaging their financial stability. The move came four months after S&P cut the U.S. to AA+, saying “extremely difficult” political discussions over how to reduce America’s more than $1 trillion budget deficit tainted the credit quality of the world’s largest economy.
Bondholders questioned the timing of S&P’s move, with European Union leaders planning to meet Dec. 8-9 in Brussels to end a crisis that led to bailouts of Greece, Ireland andPortugal, and now threatens to engulf Italy. German ChancellorAngela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy presented a plan earlier in the day to rewrite the EU’s governing treaty to allow tighter economic cooperation.
“S&P should back off,” Anthony Valeri, a market strategist with LPL Financial in San Diego, which oversees $330 billion, said in a telephone interview yesterday. “It complicates the job of the EU leaders to resolve the debt problem.”

$8.1 Trillion

Grades may be lowered by one level for Austria, Belgium, Finland, Germany, Netherlands and Luxembourg, and as many as two steps for the other governments if the summit results don’t satisfy S&P’s criteria, the firm said. More than $8.1 trillion of government debt would be affected if S&P does downgrade all the nations, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Germanyand France are rated AAA.
“The upcoming European summit,” S&P said in a report,“provides an opportunity for policy makers to break the pattern of what we consider to have been defensive and piecemeal measures to date, overcome individual national interests and preferences, and advance a credible response to the crisis that would go far towards restoring investor confidence.”
The move to tie ratings to the outcome of the summit drew criticism from European Central Bank Governing Council member Ewald Nowotny of Austria, who said in an interview that it“highlights the problem that rating agencies increasingly are assuming a political role.”

‘Increasingly Problematic’

“There is no doubt that rating agencies have an economically important role to play, but the way in which this is happening at the moment is increasingly problematic as it creates pro-cyclical effects, that means effects that make the crises worse,” Nowotny said yesterday in Vienna.
S&P said in a statement yesterday that it decided to review the region’s ratings before the summit because the risks of a deepening crisis have “risen markedly.”
“Policy makers appear to have acted only in response to mounting market pressures,” S&P said, declining to comment beyond the statement.
Finding a solution to Europe’s debt crisis took on greater urgency last month as yields on Italy’s surged past the 7 percent threshold that led Greece, Ireland and Portugal to seek aid. Italy has 500 billion euros ($669 billion) of bonds maturing in the next three years, more than the current size of the EU’s rescue fund.

U.S. Downgrade

The yield on Italy’s 10-year bond fell 73 basis points, or 0.73 percentage point, yesterday to 5.95 percent before S&P’s announcement, the lowest level since Oct. 27 on a closing basis.
In a joint statement, the governments of France and Germany said they “recognize” the move by S&P and “affirm their conviction that the common proposals made today will strengthen coordination of budget and economic policy, and promote stability, competitiveness and growth.”
New York-based S&P, a unit of McGraw-Hill Cos. (MHP), downgraded the U.S. to AA+ on Aug. 5 from AAA, saying the U.S. government is becoming “less stable, less effective and less predictable.”
While the S&P 500 Index of U.S. stocks plunged 6.7 percent on the first trading day after the downgrade, Treasuries rallied, sending yields to record lows. Treasuries due in 10 years or more are 2011’s best-performing sovereign securities, returning 26 percent as of Nov. 30, according to Bloomberg/EFFAS indexes.

‘Quadruple-A’

The ratings company’s decision on the U.S. was flawed by a $2 trillion error, according to the Treasury Department. S&P disputed the Treasury’s assertions and said using the department’s preferred spending measures in its analysis didn’t affect its credit grade.
Buffett, the billionaire chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. and the world’s most successful investor, said S&P erred and the U.S. should be rated “quadruple-A.” Buffett is also the largest shareholders of Moody’s Corp. (MCO), the parent of Moody’s Investors Service.
Downgrades of Germany and France would affect the rating of the 780 billion euro European Financial Stability Facility, the bailout fund for struggling euro member countries that has funded rescue packages for Greece, Ireland and Portugal partially through bond sales.
If the EFSF has to pay higher interest on its bonds, it may not be able to provide as much funding for indebted nations. Yields on the EFSF’s 3.375 percent bonds due in July 2021 rose 2 basis points yesterday to 3.6 percent, according to Bloomberg prices.

‘Tremendous Pressure’

The outlook change is “disastrous for Europe,” Mark Grant, a managing director at Southwest Securities Inc. in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, said in an interview yesterday on Bloomberg Television’s “Street Smart” with Lisa Murphy and Adam Johnson.
“Every bank now in Europe is also going to be downgraded as the sovereigns are downgraded, many corporations in Europe will be downgraded, the euro is going to come under tremendous pressure worldwide,” Grant said. “There’s just a whole lot of dominoes that are going to fall because of this report.”
Regulators have tried and failed to rein in credit-rating companies, which the U.S. Congress has said helped fuel the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression by assigning top grades to subprime mortgage bonds, Chris Rupkey, chief financial economist at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ Ltd. in New York, said in a telephone interview.

Proposed Rules

“Why are they pulling the trigger now?” Rupkey said yesterday in a telephone interview. “There’s a danger of putting too much power in the hands of these institutions and causing in effect a race to the bottom.”
The EU proposed rules last month to increase regulation of the credit-rating companies while postponing plans to ban them from giving assessments of countries negotiating international bailouts.
S&P also cited “high levels of government and household indebtedness across a large area of the eurozone” and the increased risk of a recession in 2012 as reasons for yesterday’s change in outlook. The firm said economic output in Spain, Portugal and Greece will likely fall next year, and that there’s now a 40 percent chance of a decline for the entire region.
The “negative” outlook on CC rated Greece, which is 10 steps below investment quality, wasn’t changed, as its grade“connotes our belief that there is a relatively high near-term probability of default,” S&P said. The firm kept its“negative” outlook on Cyprus’s long-term rating and placed its short-term rating on “creditwatch with negative implications.”

‘Credible Backstop’

Europe may stem its debt crisis by moving to a “full fiscal union” in which all countries assume responsibility for the euro area’s sovereign debt or by “a much larger commitment” by the ECB to support sovereign-debt markets, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. said Nov. 30 in a research note.
The threat of a downgrade may make it more difficult for Merkel to convince the German people that supporting peripheral nations is in their interest, Noel Hebert, a credit strategist at Mitsubishi UFJ Securities USA Inc. in New York, said yesterday in a telephone interview.
“If it starts threatening the creditworthiness of the country itself, that’s a much harder row to hoe for Germany,”Hebert said. “It heightens the internal tensions that Merkel has politically.”
Sovereign Issuer: Ratings Placed on Watch:
Austria AAA
Finland AAA
France AAA
Germany AAA
Luxembourg AAA
Netherlands AAA
Slovenia AA-/A-1+
Slovakia A+/A-1
Portugal BBB-/A-3
Ireland BBB+/A-2
Malta A/A-1
Italy A/A-1
Spain AA-/A-1+
Estonia AA-/A-1+
Belgium AA

To contact the reporters on this story: John Detrixhe in New York at [email protected]; Zeke Faux in New York at [email protected]