Titoli di Stato area Euro GRECIA Operativo titoli di stato - Cap. 3

Una view che peronalmente condivido sull'argomento:

Greek referendum offer is more con than democracy

By Marc Champion
The Greek parliament has approved a referendum to decide whether to accept the latest bailout terms offered by the country’s creditors. It will come too late and ask the wrong question.
This is a vote that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras should have called at least a month ago -- if it were an honest effort to let the Greek people make a democratic choice on where their future lies, which it is not. As it is, the July 5 referendum will be so rushed as to be flawed in principle, and will come after the current bailout program expires. Indeed, it may come after Greece has already suffered a banking collapse.
The referendum is not, as Tsipras repeatedly claimed during his announcement, an expression of democracy in response to the “authoritarianism” of the creditors. His argument that the creditors must bend to the will of his election mandate has been preposterous from the start: In which debtor nation would voters not elect to have easier credit terms? And in what case has the International Monetary Fund or any creditor been answerable to the electorate of its client nation?
I’ve argued for Greece to hold a vote to clarify what its people want. It was necessary because Syriza lied during the campaign to get its representatives elected in January, by offering to end the bailout terms, keep the bailout and stay in the euro -- an option that, rightly or wrongly, was never available. Rather than produce a clearer mandate, though, this proposed referendum would continue Syriza’s subterfuge.
According to a draft cabinet proposal, the question on which Greeks would be asked to vote in just seven days’ time would be whether they want to accept the latest offer from the country’s creditors. This is a complex document that has yet to be translated into Greek and may well be void by Wednesday. It is clear from the language Tsipras used in describing that offer -- “blackmail,” “humiliation,” “ultimatum” -- which way he wants the vote to go.
Again, just as during the election campaign, Syriza officials are not mentioning what all this would mean for Greece’s place in the euro. They are maintaining the fiction that the question of accepting the bailout terms is quite separate from whether Greece defaults on its debt payments, sees its financial sector collapse and is forced to issue its own currency in one guise or another.
Not once in his address on the referendum did Tsipras mention the common currency. When the Associated Press asked Syriza cabinet minister Panagiotis Lafazanis whether the nirvana of reconstruction and progress he described as following from a “no” vote to the bailout would involve leaving the euro, he said: “It is you [the media] who pose this dilemma.”
This is populist dishonesty. It may be that by this point Greece would be better off defaulting and returning to the drachma (though I doubt it). And it may be that a majority of Greeks would make the choice to go it alone, rather than continue a dysfunctional relationship with the nation’s economic partners and creditors (although opinion polls suggest not). But the proposed referendum doesn’t ask those questions.
Tsipras and his party want this vote to legitimize their decision to default and exit the euro, most likely after that decision has already been made, without actually telling Greeks that this is the choice they are making. It gives further weight to my suspicion that Syriza’s erratic negotiating behavior for the last five months has been driven by a preference for default and exiting the euro they could not express, because the party had no mandate for it.
Greek voters should be told the honest truth about what they would be deciding on July 5, if the vote goes ahead at all after the likely chaos of the next week: a return to the bailout terms within the euro, or a default and a return to fiscal sovereignty outside it.
[Bloomberg View]

Lo dico da venerdì notte quando a Tsipras sono venuti gli incubi, ma molti non ci vogliono proprio sentire, eppure è semplice. Comunque in una frittata venuta male quando è stata fondata l'UE è ovvvio che nascano questi aborti.
Vedremo il quesito ufficiale del referendum per capire meglio se i sondaggi possono aver ragione o no, visto che secondo me fanno un po' di confusione tra rifiuto offerta creditori, default e uscita dall'€.

P.S. e visto che è estate e che c'è confusione, questa è possibile che domini anche il voto.
 
Ultima modifica:
Il Sakellaridis che prende gli ordini direttamente da Tsipras dice ora che il referendum non è sulla valuta ... ma unicamente sulla proposta dei creditori di venerdì.

Il fiero "no" al referendum - a suo dire - segnerà il proseguimento dei negoziati :-o.

Questo é quello che continuo a non capire.

Per loro se dovesse vincere il NO significherebbe davvero proseguimento dei negoziati?! Ma quali negoziati?

Questi sono classici sinistroidi idealisti senza alcun reale fondamento.
 
Ev. Venizelos: "slittamento istituzionale senza fine"







Per slittamento istituzionale "senza fine" ha parlato del Ev. Venizelos, rispondendo alle domande dei giornalisti 'sulla versione PNP dei termini e le procedure per lo svolgimento del referendum.


In particolare la dichiarazione del signor Venizelos è la seguente:


"Uno versa Lo slittamento istituzionale all'avvio, non è senza fine ho sviluppato ieri alla Camera le ragioni per le quali sono molteplici condotta incostituzionale di un tale referendum E 'inconcepibile che una chiave per il destino del luogo a referendum condotto sette giorni.. - cinque di lavoro -. dopo la proclamazione Questa elusione e la degenerazione della democrazia.

Ma è giuridicamente impossibile, perché non riescono a rispettare i termini della legge elettorale che si applicano a referendum. Sottolineiamo in Parlamento.


Ora rilasciare PNP per il successivo inasprimento delle scadenze citando "estremamente urgente e imprevedibile bisogno" pianificazione governo avventuriero di proporre un referendum entro una settimana!


Ma la "estrema urgenza e imprevedibile" verifica solo sull'oggetto e non a seguito di un progetto politico che crea artificiale e quindi perfettamente prevedibile "bisogno".


Dopo quindi la brutale violazione del paragrafo 2 dell'articolo 44 della Costituzione, arriva la brutale violazione del paragrafo 1 dello stesso articolo per atto legislativo.


Come annunciato ieri in Aula Signora Presidente, Signor Presidente della Repubblica è stato sempre "istituzionale aggiornata" in merito alla proposta del Consiglio dei Ministri ha tenuto un inedito "fast track" e sul referendum sequestro.


Così, purtroppo, si può supporre che aveva previsto e necessità imprevista per PNP a cambiare deliberatamente i termini e le procedure!


Misericordia.


Nel referendum selezionando l'Europa ha scelto felicemente e la democrazia ".


Con le informazioni da ANA-MPA
 
Una view che personalmente condivido sull'argomento:

Greek referendum offer is more con than democracy

By Marc Champion
The Greek parliament has approved a referendum to decide whether to accept the latest bailout terms offered by the country’s creditors. It will come too late and ask the wrong question.
This is a vote that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras should have called at least a month ago -- if it were an honest effort to let the Greek people make a democratic choice on where their future lies, which it is not. As it is, the July 5 referendum will be so rushed as to be flawed in principle, and will come after the current bailout program expires. Indeed, it may come after Greece has already suffered a banking collapse.
The referendum is not, as Tsipras repeatedly claimed during his announcement, an expression of democracy in response to the “authoritarianism” of the creditors. His argument that the creditors must bend to the will of his election mandate has been preposterous from the start: In which debtor nation would voters not elect to have easier credit terms? And in what case has the International Monetary Fund or any creditor been answerable to the electorate of its client nation?
I’ve argued for Greece to hold a vote to clarify what its people want. It was necessary because Syriza lied during the campaign to get its representatives elected in January, by offering to end the bailout terms, keep the bailout and stay in the euro -- an option that, rightly or wrongly, was never available. Rather than produce a clearer mandate, though, this proposed referendum would continue Syriza’s subterfuge.
According to a draft cabinet proposal, the question on which Greeks would be asked to vote in just seven days’ time would be whether they want to accept the latest offer from the country’s creditors. This is a complex document that has yet to be translated into Greek and may well be void by Wednesday. It is clear from the language Tsipras used in describing that offer -- “blackmail,” “humiliation,” “ultimatum” -- which way he wants the vote to go.
Again, just as during the election campaign, Syriza officials are not mentioning what all this would mean for Greece’s place in the euro. They are maintaining the fiction that the question of accepting the bailout terms is quite separate from whether Greece defaults on its debt payments, sees its financial sector collapse and is forced to issue its own currency in one guise or another.
Not once in his address on the referendum did Tsipras mention the common currency. When the Associated Press asked Syriza cabinet minister Panagiotis Lafazanis whether the nirvana of reconstruction and progress he described as following from a “no” vote to the bailout would involve leaving the euro, he said: “It is you [the media] who pose this dilemma.”
This is populist dishonesty. It may be that by this point Greece would be better off defaulting and returning to the drachma (though I doubt it). And it may be that a majority of Greeks would make the choice to go it alone, rather than continue a dysfunctional relationship with the nation’s economic partners and creditors (although opinion polls suggest not). But the proposed referendum doesn’t ask those questions.
Tsipras and his party want this vote to legitimize their decision to default and exit the euro, most likely after that decision has already been made, without actually telling Greeks that this is the choice they are making. It gives further weight to my suspicion that Syriza’s erratic negotiating behavior for the last five months has been driven by a preference for default and exiting the euro they could not express, because the party had no mandate for it.
Greek voters should be told the honest truth about what they would be deciding on July 5, if the vote goes ahead at all after the likely chaos of the next week: a return to the bailout terms within the euro, or a default and a return to fiscal sovereignty outside it.
[Bloomberg View]

Il solito pattume mediatico. L'articolista non ha capito nulla. Sappiamo come è andata la vicenda. L'accordo era fatto poi per colpa dell'FMI e del silenzio assenso dei teutonici tutto è saltato per cui Tsipras posto nell'angolo ne è venuto fuori necessariamente col referendum. Nell'articolo da me postato in precedenza Krugman chiarisce bene la questione.
 
si, un bel referendum in Germania: volete voi avere stipendi più alti? :D

Intendevo "volete voi finanziare la Grecia alle condizioni di Tsipras e Varu con le vostre tasse?"

[OT]
Cmq un "resounding yes" al quesito da te proposto sarebbe giustificato, visto che gli stipendi tedeschi sono cresciuti molto meno rispetto alla produttività e agli utili delle imprese.
 
Ultima modifica:
Il Sakellaridis che prende gli ordini direttamente da Tsipras dice ora che il referendum non è sulla valuta ... ma unicamente sulla proposta dei creditori di venerdì.

Il fiero "no" al referendum - a suo dire - segnerà il proseguimento dei negoziati :-o.

Il fiero no non indica un proseguimento dei trattati, mente!
Vogliono aizzare ma folla e ottenere ancora più forza nei negoziati! Noi siamo fratelli d italia, questi sono Figli di Troia... https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troia
 

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