Gallo Cedrone
Forumer storico
Della Gerling troverai tutte le caratteristiche alla riga 105 del foglio excel che quotidianamente posta Mais78 e che ancora una volta ringrazio (insieme a Reef) per il preziosissimo contributo!!!
Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (8 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione negusneg
- Data di Inizio
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- additional tier 1 bail in basilea 3 coco bonds crd iv genussscheine grandfathering hybrid bond loss absorption lower tier 2 make whole amount matusalem bond obbligazioni irredimibili obbligazioni perpetue obbligazioni subordinate perpetual bond preference shares restricted tier 1 tier 1 upper tier 2
- Stato
Della Gerling troverai tutte le caratteristiche alla riga 105 del foglio excel che quotidianamente posta Mais78 e che ancora una volta ringrazio (insieme a Reef) per il preziosissimo contributo!!!
Gallo Cedrone
Forumer storico
Ora del 15 Ottobre sono sopra 50 mi sà
Chissà dove arriveranno le quotazioni di BA se Unicredit il 29 Settembre deciderà di non prendere i Tremonti Bond !!!!!
Vet
Forumer storico
Cari amici del forum (mi scuso se uso questo termine , me oramai è diverso tempo che siete fra le persone che frequento di più, anche se virtuali al a tal proposito spero di conoscerne qualcuna fisicamente il giorno 30 di sett a Milano o in altra data e luogo ).
Volevo porre questo quesito , che spero , non sembri troppo banale....da buon impreditore (anche se in questi ultimi 3 anni sono più le uscite che le entrate al punto da rendere la mia piccola attività antieconomica) ho notato la forbice abbastanza , direi , importante tra denaro e lettera delle ns perpetue.....a questo punto la mia domanda è : non si potrebbe creare una nostra cooperativa o società che gestisca le ns perpetue (nel senso di obbligazioni) presenti è future per rendere più vantagiosi per noi gli acquisti e le vendite....secondo voi i costi sarebbero maggiori o minori dei vantaggi che si potrebbero avere con questa "attività"
Grazie per il vs contributo (spero) ,e cortesia ,alla risposta a questa mia domanda.
P.S come al solito abusando della vs conoscenza e generosità volevo chiedervi del perchè delle valutazione (che io ritengo bassa almeno raffrontate con loro altre emissioni)che il mercato dà a 2 obbligazioni in particolare:
Rabo xs0214155458 cedola 4x (irs10-irs2) con call 23.03.2010
UBS DE000A0D1KX0
Volevo porre questo quesito , che spero , non sembri troppo banale....da buon impreditore (anche se in questi ultimi 3 anni sono più le uscite che le entrate al punto da rendere la mia piccola attività antieconomica) ho notato la forbice abbastanza , direi , importante tra denaro e lettera delle ns perpetue.....a questo punto la mia domanda è : non si potrebbe creare una nostra cooperativa o società che gestisca le ns perpetue (nel senso di obbligazioni) presenti è future per rendere più vantagiosi per noi gli acquisti e le vendite....secondo voi i costi sarebbero maggiori o minori dei vantaggi che si potrebbero avere con questa "attività"
Grazie per il vs contributo (spero) ,e cortesia ,alla risposta a questa mia domanda.
P.S come al solito abusando della vs conoscenza e generosità volevo chiedervi del perchè delle valutazione (che io ritengo bassa almeno raffrontate con loro altre emissioni)che il mercato dà a 2 obbligazioni in particolare:
Rabo xs0214155458 cedola 4x (irs10-irs2) con call 23.03.2010
UBS DE000A0D1KX0
samantaao
Forumer storico
Della Gerling troverai tutte le caratteristiche alla riga 105 del foglio excel che quotidianamente posta Mais78 e che ancora una volta ringrazio (insieme a Reef) per il preziosissimo contributo!!!
Ciao,
non so aiutarti, piu' passa il tempo e piu' ho voglia di vendere tutto
Se pero' sei interessato piu' alle cedole che al capital gain fossi in te inizierei dalle cumulative in modo da minimizzare il rischio di perdere le cedole oppure mi limiterei a qualche UT2 che rende ancora bene tipo Gerling o Deutsche borse
Al Momento Prenderei la Talanx Gerling 7% Si compra ancora bene circa 88
per riassumere
sul foglio abbiamo la
XS0223589440 Gerling Konzern 6,75% 30/06/15 euribor 3m + 4,55% taglio 1000
di questa sappiamo le caratteristiche tipo UT2-T1, comulative e/o loss?
non c'è nel foglio:
xs0198106238 gerling 7,00% 12/08/2014euribor 3 mesi + 3,75 taglio 1000
da quanto dice solenoide
è una UT2 con tutto quello che ne conseguese la XS0223589440 non fosse una UT2 ma una Tier1?
allego prospetti trovati in un vecchio post di solenoide... x chi ci capisce se poi ci vuole chiarire...
Topgun1976
Guest
La XS0223589440 è un Tier 1 ma è illiquida,difficilissima da comprare
Mentre la xs0198106238 si compra ancora a 88 ed è una delle ultime occasioni rimaste a buon prezzo,7% di cedola,scadenza 2024 Ut2.Non si capisce perchè quoti 88 e non almeno 95.
Mentre la xs0198106238 si compra ancora a 88 ed è una delle ultime occasioni rimaste a buon prezzo,7% di cedola,scadenza 2024 Ut2.Non si capisce perchè quoti 88 e non almeno 95.
ferdo
Utente Senior
non confondere: c'è la perpetual (non molto liquida) e la UT2 - bè lascio ma ti avevano già risposto in tanti...Della Gerling troverai tutte le caratteristiche alla riga 105 del foglio excel che quotidianamente posta Mais78 e che ancora una volta ringrazio (insieme a Reef) per il preziosissimo contributo!!!
samantaao
Forumer storico
solenoide
Forumer storico
Ciao,
per quanto riguarda la prima domanda la risposta purtroppo e' no, OTC tutte le proposte sono intermediate dalle banche quindi ti devi piegare ai loro diktat , tutto il forum messo insieme sarebbe comunque una pulce di fronte ad una BNP etc....
Rabo non e' subordinata quindi il richiamo e' meno scontato ed essendo la cedola legata ad una scommessa sui tassi credo che il prezzo sia "normale".
UBS non so dirti
Mais78
BAWAG fan club
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Moody's Investors Service has todaydowngraded the ratings of the USD1.285 billion, the USD200 million andthe USD1.8 billion non-cumulative trust preferred securities issued byABN AMRO Capital Funding Trust V, VI and VII to B3 from A2. Moody's alsodowngraded the ratings of the EUR1 billion 4.31% capital securities toBa2 from A2 and the GBP750million cumulative perpetual subordinated notesissued by ABN AMRO Bank N.V. (ABN AMRO) to Ba2 from A1. All these ratingshave been placed on review for possible further downgrade. ABN AMRO's C+ bank financial strength rating mapping with a A2 BaselineCredit Assessment and Aa3 senior debt and deposit ratings remain onreview for possible further downgrade while the Prime-1 short-term debtand deposit ratings remain unchanged.
The rating action reflects Moody's assumption that the downgraded securities face a high probability of coupon deferral, as a result of the ongoing discussion between the Dutch Ministry of Finance and theEuropean Commission (EC) on state aid packages granted to Dutch banks.Today's rating action also reflects the concerns cited in Moody's pressrelease entitled "Moody's sees broader impact on hybrid ratingstriggered by EC's state aid reviews", published on 19 August 2009. The review for possible further downgrade reflects the prospect of potential further downgrades in the event of a downgrade of ABN AMRO's BFSR or in the event of a longer-term suspension of coupons. On 3 October 2008, the Dutch State took over Fortis Bank Nederland (C-/A1/positive outlook/Prime-1), which itself indirectly owned a 34%stake in ABN AMRO ("N Share"), representing an economic interest in theDutch retail and commercial banking and international private bankingbusinesses of ABN AMRO. On 24 December 2008, the Dutch government becamethe direct owner of the "N Share", purchased from Fortis Bank Nederlandfor EUR6.5 billion. On 31 July 2009, in anticipation of the de-merger ofthe N-share from the rest of ABN AMRO, ABN AMRO received State supportthrough an EUR800 million Mandatory Convertible Tier-1 Security (MCS)that was acquired by the Dutch Ministry of Finance and through thecreation of a capital relief instrument that provides credit protectionfrom the Dutch State on EUR 34.5 billion of ABN AMRO residentialmortgages, thereby reducing the bank's risk-weighted assets by EUR19billion. Given the state support received and the EC's scrutiny oncoupons of hybrid securities and dividends being paid out of profits,Moody's believes that there is an increased risk that ABN AMRO may beadvised to skip optional coupons on its hybrids. ABN AMRO indeed reporteda loss of EUR2.647 billion after tax at end-June 2009. After the de-merger, the businesses of ABN AMRO that remain will operatewithin a Dutch-chartered bank that will be renamed Royal Bank of ScotlandNV (RBS NV) which should in due course become a wholly-owned subsidiaryof Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc (RBS). Moody's noted that the trustpreferred securities issued by ABN AMRO Capital Funding Trust V, VI andVII are "economically allocated" on a preliminary basis to the businessesslated to remain with RBS NV. However, even if, after the de-merger,these securities are no longer associated with a bank that has receivedDutch state support, Moody's believes that these securities are stillvulnerable to EC scrutiny that could lead to missed coupons. RBS itselfhas already benefited from substantial UK government support, and in 2009ABN AMRO received a sizeable capital infusion from RBS. Furthermore,after the de-merger, RBS is planning to include certain assets of RBS NVin the UK government's asset protection scheme. In light of this, Moody'sbelieves that the risk of missed coupons is high at all of ABN AMRO'shybrid instruments, even if it is not entirely certain at this pointwhether they will become obligations of ABN AMRO Bank or of RBS NV afterthe de-merger. Moody's notes that the coupon payments on the trust preferred securities issued by ABN AMRO Capital Funding Trust V, VI and VII arenon-cumulative. Therefore, if the deferral of the coupon payments were tomaterialise, the loss severity of a coupon deferral on these securitieswould be high. This is the reason for the steeper downgrade on thosesecurities. The perpetual cumulative subordinated notes and the capital securitiesissued by ABN AMRO Bank, which allow for a cumulative coupon deferralwith ACSM settlement, would have a much lower loss severity in the eventof coupon deferral. ABN AMRO Bank N.V., headquartered in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, had total assets of EUR666.8 billion and reported shareholders' equity(including minority interest) of EUR20.4 billion as of 31 December 2008.
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The rating action reflects Moody's assumption that the downgraded securities face a high probability of coupon deferral, as a result of the ongoing discussion between the Dutch Ministry of Finance and theEuropean Commission (EC) on state aid packages granted to Dutch banks.Today's rating action also reflects the concerns cited in Moody's pressrelease entitled "Moody's sees broader impact on hybrid ratingstriggered by EC's state aid reviews", published on 19 August 2009. The review for possible further downgrade reflects the prospect of potential further downgrades in the event of a downgrade of ABN AMRO's BFSR or in the event of a longer-term suspension of coupons. On 3 October 2008, the Dutch State took over Fortis Bank Nederland (C-/A1/positive outlook/Prime-1), which itself indirectly owned a 34%stake in ABN AMRO ("N Share"), representing an economic interest in theDutch retail and commercial banking and international private bankingbusinesses of ABN AMRO. On 24 December 2008, the Dutch government becamethe direct owner of the "N Share", purchased from Fortis Bank Nederlandfor EUR6.5 billion. On 31 July 2009, in anticipation of the de-merger ofthe N-share from the rest of ABN AMRO, ABN AMRO received State supportthrough an EUR800 million Mandatory Convertible Tier-1 Security (MCS)that was acquired by the Dutch Ministry of Finance and through thecreation of a capital relief instrument that provides credit protectionfrom the Dutch State on EUR 34.5 billion of ABN AMRO residentialmortgages, thereby reducing the bank's risk-weighted assets by EUR19billion. Given the state support received and the EC's scrutiny oncoupons of hybrid securities and dividends being paid out of profits,Moody's believes that there is an increased risk that ABN AMRO may beadvised to skip optional coupons on its hybrids. ABN AMRO indeed reporteda loss of EUR2.647 billion after tax at end-June 2009. After the de-merger, the businesses of ABN AMRO that remain will operatewithin a Dutch-chartered bank that will be renamed Royal Bank of ScotlandNV (RBS NV) which should in due course become a wholly-owned subsidiaryof Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc (RBS). Moody's noted that the trustpreferred securities issued by ABN AMRO Capital Funding Trust V, VI andVII are "economically allocated" on a preliminary basis to the businessesslated to remain with RBS NV. However, even if, after the de-merger,these securities are no longer associated with a bank that has receivedDutch state support, Moody's believes that these securities are stillvulnerable to EC scrutiny that could lead to missed coupons. RBS itselfhas already benefited from substantial UK government support, and in 2009ABN AMRO received a sizeable capital infusion from RBS. Furthermore,after the de-merger, RBS is planning to include certain assets of RBS NVin the UK government's asset protection scheme. In light of this, Moody'sbelieves that the risk of missed coupons is high at all of ABN AMRO'shybrid instruments, even if it is not entirely certain at this pointwhether they will become obligations of ABN AMRO Bank or of RBS NV afterthe de-merger. Moody's notes that the coupon payments on the trust preferred securities issued by ABN AMRO Capital Funding Trust V, VI and VII arenon-cumulative. Therefore, if the deferral of the coupon payments were tomaterialise, the loss severity of a coupon deferral on these securitieswould be high. This is the reason for the steeper downgrade on thosesecurities. The perpetual cumulative subordinated notes and the capital securitiesissued by ABN AMRO Bank, which allow for a cumulative coupon deferralwith ACSM settlement, would have a much lower loss severity in the eventof coupon deferral. ABN AMRO Bank N.V., headquartered in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, had total assets of EUR666.8 billion and reported shareholders' equity(including minority interest) of EUR20.4 billion as of 31 December 2008.
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- Stato