Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 2 (12 lettori)

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solovaloreaggiunto

Forumer storico
Questi sono i forum, non ci può far nulla. Fiumi d'inchiostro sui distresed/speculativi, due post per la AAA. Vale lo stesso per i ns colleghi esteri di Rankia, Bonboard, TMF, etc...

Ma lo vedo anche sul forum d'arte che modero: botte da orbi sugli artisti emergenti, un po' di dibattito su artisti anni '50 (come Fontana, Manzoni, etc), qualche post su De Chirico, impressionisti e lo zero assoluto su Michelangelo e Raffaello...:rolleyes:
Ahhhh bellissima la similitudine Zorba !!
 

Topgun1976

Guest
Se un privato investitore decide di postare la sua operatività sul forum personalmente non ci vedo nulla di male, anzi.

Diverso è il caso di chi opera professionalmente nel settore, magari muovendo quotidianamente discreti capitali, soprattutto se si tratta di titoli sottili.

In questo caso la cosa mi sembrerebbe eticamente discutibile (e forse anche controproducente :D).
Perfect;) daltronde è normale parlare dei titoli meno conosciuti o più a rischio,cè bisogno di operatività,MM,Notizie.....di cosa vuoi parlare su Allianz?Generali?..
 
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Topgun1976

Guest
Se qualcuno volesse accodarsi mi scriva su [email protected]

Alcuni dei Vostri email sono finiti nel junk insieme a proposte per allungare il pene o pillole di viagra al costo pastiglie leone all'anice

Grazie Cat,onestamente questo sottomarino amarillo lo vedo punto sul vivo..
Io non capisco perchè diano delle sentenze ora,chi lo sà dove sarà il mercato doamni o tra 6 mesi.
Se il mercato si riprenderà ancor di più anche Group salirà,in caso contrario sarà la prima scendere.
Cosi come fà a dire ora se calleranno o meno?Nel 2015 chi lo sà come sarà messa Groupama
 

ferdo

Utente Senior
report BNP su Groupama:

come fa a dare alla UT2 un FV inferiore alla T1 414 in caso di mancata call, rispettivamente 32 e 41?!
assegna zero alle clausole no loss abs e cumul
va be' siamo nell'ipotesi perpetuity con cedole che paga
In ogni caso, con FV=32, CY della UT2: 7,7%
con FV=41, CY della T1: 6,8%
non è proprio uguale

ML dava un FV perpetuity 43%

Cmq non vedo in nessuno dei due report ipotizzati scenari apocalittici
 
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Topgun1976

Guest
report BNP su Groupama:

come fa a dare alla UT2 un FV inferiore alla T1 414 in caso di mancata call, rispettivamente 32 e 41?!
assegna zero alle clausole no loss abs e cumul
va be' siamo nell'ipotesi perpetuity con cedole che paga
In ogni caso, con FV=32, CY della UT2: 7,7%
con FV=41, CY della T1: 6,8%
non è proprio uguale

Quello dell'analista di Ms mi pare era molto più obbiettivo..questo spara a 0 perchè punto sul vivo..
 

TheLondoner

Forumer storico
Ottima notizia per Generali 10.125%, fino a 120 non mollo :D
Concordo sul Generali!
il nuovo bond Allianz ha dato una spinta anche al bond Delta Lloyd 9%. Vediamo come si muoverà la categoria dei t2 10nc30 nelle prossime sedute.

In ogni caso sul Generali 10.125% cruciale è il piano strategico che sta elaborando Mario Greco... al quale è "dichiaratamente" legato anche il rating dell'emittente: se rafforzassero il capitale e quindi il solvency margin i 120 forse & magari li vedremmo davvero;-)
 

Topgun1976

Guest
Qui dice chiaramente che la 414 è da considerarsi Equity,quindi il Sig.Martel considerava l'interesse come dividendo..ecco perchè non ha pagato.

Cè un cuscinetto di 1miliardo di euro che protegge le T2 .Secondo me i vari analisti sottovalutano il rischio che si corre sula 414 ,rispetto alle altre 2.


Loss Absorption and Reinstatement
(1) Loss Absorption
In the event of the occurrence of a Solvency Event (as defined below), the Conseil
d’Administration (Board of Directors) of the Issuer shall convene an extraordinary shareholders’
meeting (the Meeting) during the 3 month period immediately following the occurrence of the
Solvency Event to propose to its shareholders a share capital increase or any other measures to
remedy such Solvency Event.
If, following the occurrence of a Solvency Event there are Relevant Losses and such Relevant
Losses have not been totally set off against any increase of the shareholders’ funds (capitaux
propres) of the Issuer which may have been implemented to remedy such Solvency Event by the
last day of the Relevant Financial Period during which the Meeting was held or was due to be
held), the Conseil d’Administration (the Board of Directors) of the Issuer will implement, within
10 days following the last day of the Relevant Financial Period, a reduction of the then
Principal Amount of the Notes (Loss Absorption) to off-set the Relevant Losses and thereafter,
to enable it to continue operating its business on a going concern basis. A Loss Absorption will
be implemented by partially or fully reducing the then Principal Amount.
The amount by which the then Principal Amount of the Notes is reduced (the Reduction
Amount), will be determined as follows:
(a) the Reduction Amount will be the lower of (i) the Outstanding Relevant Losses (as defined
below but prior to any deemed reduction pursuant to the proviso of the definition) and (ii)
the then Principal Amount of the Notes immediately prior to such reduction, and
(b) in the event that other Deeply Subordinated Notes (or other debt securities (howsoever
called) which rank pari passu with the Notes and are eligible for the purpose of calculating
the Applicable Solvency Margin Level of the Combined Regulatory Group and/or the
Consolidated Group) of the Issuer are outstanding and which (x) allow for solvency events
to occur at the level of the Combined Regulatory Group and/or the Consolidated Group
and (y) provide for loss absorption and reinstatement (Other Deeply Subordinated Notes),
such Loss Absorption will be applied on a pro rata basis among the Notes and such Other
Deeply Subordinated Notes and the Reduction Amount shall be reduced accordingly.
The aggregate Principal Amount of the Notes shall be adjusted accordingly. The Principal
Amount of the Notes may, pursuant to the above provisions, be reduced on one or more
occasions as required.
Notwithstanding any other provision, the Principal Amount of each Note shall never be reduced
to an amount lower than one cent of one euro.
9
For the purposes of these Conditions:
A Solvency Event will be deemed to have occurred if, at any time during which the Combined
Regulatory Group and/or the Consolidated Group are subject to Applicable Regulations, any
Applicable Solvency Margin Level has fallen below one hundred (100) per cent. of the minimum
Applicable Solvency Margin Level required for that Relevant Financial Period. Such event will
be deemed to have occurred on the earlier of the date on which the relevant financial statements
for the Relevant Financial Period are published or on any other date on which the Issuer
determines that the Applicable Solvency Margin Level has fallen below one hundred (100) per
cent. of the minimum Applicable Solvency Margin Level required for that Relevant Financial
Period.
Outstanding Relevant Losses means the amount of Relevant Losses which have not been set-off
against the shareholders’ funds (capitaux propres) of the Issuer following the implementation of
any measures adopted by the Meeting; provided that, if:
(i) the relevant Solvency Event occurred at the level of the Combined Regulatory Group, and
(ii) any Relevant Affiliated Entity has at the relevant time outstanding indebtedness in the
form of Deeply Subordinated Notes (or other debt securities (howsoever called) which rank
pari passu with Deeply Subordinated Notes and are eligible for the purpose of calculating
the Applicable Solvency Margin Level of the Combined Regulatory Group) which (a)
allow for solvency events to occur at the level of the Combined Regulatory Group and (b)
provide for loss absorption and reinstatement (Equivalent Deeply Subordinated Notes),
the amount of Outstanding Relevant Losses shall be deemed to be reduced by an amount
equal to the product of the following formula:
ORL X A / B
Where:
ORL means Outstanding Relevant Losses,
A means the sum of the then current principal amount of each issue of Equivalent Deeply
Subordinated Notes, and
B means the sum of:
(i) A,
(ii) the then Principal Amount of the Notes, and
(iii) the then current principal amount of any other Deeply Subordinated Notes (or other
debt securities (howsoever called) which rank pari passu with the Notes and are
eligible for the purpose of calculating the Applicable Solvency Margin Level of the
Combined Regulatory Group) of the Issuer which (a) allow for solvency events to
occur at the level of the Combined Regulatory Group and (b) provide for loss
absorption and reinstatement.
Relevant Losses means the amount of losses which, following the occurrence of a Solvency
Event, would need to be off-set or absorbed for the Solvency Event which has occurred to be
remedied
 

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