Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 2 (24 lettori)

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negusneg

New Member
Dal documento postato da Top mi pare che in Italia possano aderire solo gli operatori qualificati e con un minimo di 50.000 Euro (pag.30). :wall::wall::wall:

Da come la leggo io ,ma ci vorrebbe qlc che parli inglese perfettamente,io capisco che chi non è in Olanda o Non è un Inv Qualificato può partecipare solo con tagli da 50k,ma può essere una prassi

(...)Iw cade dalle Nuvole:lol: cmq mi hanno detto che Bisogna essere Iin Qual,e che mi faranno sapere...oltretutto dicono che non fanno operazioni con Manleva:rolleyes:;):):bow::-o:cool:

Non serve essere investitori qualificati, quella clausola è la prassi per evitare di dover presentare un prospetto alla Consob per l'autorizzazione.

In realtà in tutte queste tender offer si fa riferimento alle direttive europee, recepite in Italia dal D. leg. 58 24/2/98 e dal Regolamento Consob 11971 del 14/5/99, che regolano la materia. Lo scopo è di evitare che vengano pubblicizzate e promosse sistematicamente ed al pubblico indistinto offerte che non prevedano un prospetto approvato dalla Consob.

Fanno eccezione gli investitori qualificati ma anche i retail, qualora il numero di adesioni non sia tale da fare presupporre un'attività sistematica di promozione. Di fatto chi gestisce l'offerta non effettua alcun tipo di controllo, quindi chiunque può aderire, purchè rilasci manleva alla banca dichiarando di aver saputo dell'offerta autonomamente e di essere consapevoli dei rischi che può comportare.
 

innocentiproject

Forumer attivo
scusa, ma chi ti ha detto che Banca d'Italia ha vietato di esercitare delle call?
Intesa ha richiamato parecchia roba, idem Unicredito comprese delle obbligazioni scadenza dicembre 2012 che rendevano veramente poco.
Anche Banco Popolare ha ritirato qualcosa, cambiando con (mi pare) dei senior.
Vado a memoria, per cui correggetemi se sbaglio

ciao,
credo che si riferisse ad OPS ed OPA piovute dal cielo in date non predeterminate.
Le call e el OPS a cui ti riferisci sono tutte vere, ma fatte alla "first call date", le OPA e le OPS che hanno invaso il mercato sono invece OPPORTUNISTE, ed a volte ridicole...ma possono far comodo per saltare da di qua a di là dimenticando i PMC e cercando fortuna.
 

lagonzaga

Forumer attivo
se tagliano di 600 milioni il nominale del subordinato del governo, significa che tocca un taglio del 60% del nominale anche al perpetuo.... let's see


da capire poi in caso di bad bank, dove vanno a finire i perpetui...[/QUOTE]


Vedendo queste news non sarebbe il caso di fare uno switch sulla Oevag

XS0201306288 su cui il taglio del nominale non dovrebbe essere permesso

e si acquista ad un prezzo anche inferiore. ??
 

ferdo

Utente Senior
By Helene Fouquet
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Groupama SA may sell a 44% stake in
Silic SA to Icade SA, Reuters reported, citing two people
familiar with the plans. Groupama may sign an agreement with
Caisse des Depots, Icade’s majority holder, in the coming hours,
Reuters said.
A spokeswoman for Groupama did not return calls from
Bloomberg News.

incrociamo le dita ....

2 parole in più:


UPDATE 1-Icade to bid for Groupama's SILIC on Tues -sources

The embattled mutual insurer is expected to sign an agreement to sell its 44 percent stake in SILIC with Icade's majority shareholder state bank Caisse des Depots (CDC) in the coming hours, the source said.

"The deal would help Groupama boost its solvency margin by 15 to 20 percent," one of the sources said.

Groupama is under pressure from French regulator Autorite de Controle Prudentiel (ACP) to shore up its solvency margin to at least 100 percent by year-end, the sources said, and improve it further in 2012.

It is the first big European insurer to suffer capital adequacy problems as a result of the sovereign debt crisis in Europe, but it is now confident it will meet the target, one of the sources said.
 

fabriziof

Forumer storico
By Zoe Schneeweiss
Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Oesterreichische Volksbanken AG has
agreed to lower the price of the eastern Europe unit it is
selling to OAO Sberbank to 500 million euros ($660 million),
from previously 585 million euros, because of losses in Hungary
and a worse than anticipated development in other countries, Der
Standard reported, without saying where it got the information.



By Zoe Schneeweiss
Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Oesterreichische Volksbanken AG, the
Austrian lender which has yet to pay interest on 1 billion euros
($1.3 billion) of state aid received in 2009, is considering
establishing a so-called bad bank, Format magazine reported,
without saying where it got the information.
The lender, majority-owned by a group of 62 regional
cooperative banks, wants Austria to carry the costs of this bad
bank via capital injections and guarantees, according to the
report. Volksbanken would transfer everything that isn’t part of
its “core business” -- from “ailing bonds to defunct real-
estate loans” -- into the bad bank, Format said.
Volksbanken’s also wants to reduce its capital by 60
percent to wipe out losses, the Vienna-based magazine said. This
would mean than the state would need to write down 600 million
euros of the injected aid, Format said. The plan will be
presented to the Finance Ministry next week, according to the
report.
Finance Minister Maria Fekter is demanding that the
regional cooperative banks and DZ Bank give Volksbanken extra
capital if they want state assistance, Format said.
The regional cooperative banks own 61 percent of
Volksbanken. Germany’s DZ Bank owns 23 percent, a unit of Munich
Re owns 9 percent and Raiffeisen Zentralbank Oesterreich AG owns
6 percent





se tagliano di 600 milioni il nominale del subordinato del governo, significa che tocca un taglio del 60% del nominale anche al perpetuo.... let's see


da capire poi in caso di bad bank, dove vanno a finire i perpetui...


a giugno l'ir diceva che avrebbero pagato le cedole...
 

lambda

Forumer attivo
Nl0000113587

NL0000113587
ING VERZEKER TV ho questa ing che poi è una subordinata ut2 se non sbaglio. Ma ho letto bene che c’è un’offerta all’87/100?
In cambio invece di cash mi danno un titolo senior.
E’ così?
 

bosmeld

Forumer storico
sempre su Groupama (anche se si chiude questo deal, siamo solo all'inizio...)

(Reuters) - French insurer Groupama, which needs to improve its solvency by the end of the year to meet a key regulatory hurdle, is in talks to merge its property unit with a rival's under a government-brokered deal, two sources close to the talks said on Tuesday.
France's Icade (ICAD.PA) -- controlled by state bank Caisse de Depots -- is to launch an all-share bid for real estate company SILIC (SILP.PA), which is 44-percent owned by Groupama, the sources said.
But bankers and analysts say that will not put an end to the issues facing mutual insurer Groupama GRPMHA.UL, which they reckon needs to raise at least another 2 billion euros ($2.7 billion) even after the SILIC deal.
"This is a plaster on a gaping wound," said CreditSights analyst Philippe Picagne.
Groupama is under pressure from French regulator Autorite de Controle Prudentiel (ACP) to shore up its solvency margin to at least 100 percent by year-end, the sources said, and improve it further in 2012.
It is the first big European insurer to suffer capital adequacy problems as a result of the sovereign debt crisis in Europe, but it is confident it will meet the target, a third source familiar with Groupama's thinking said.
The SILIC deal, and hundreds of million euros of profits made on the sale of French and German treasury bonds, will buy it time so that it can continue raising capital in 2012, the third source said.
Under the structure of the deal, SILIC and Icade would be merged, and CDC and Groupama would retain a stake in the newly formed entity, the first two sources close to the talks said.
Groupama is hoping to make a book gain from the sale above the 600 million euros current market value of the stake, the third source said. SILIC's total market value is about 1.3 billion euros.
The company would stress in any discussions that SILIC has vast swathes of building land in areas close to the Orly and Roissy airports and in the Paris business centre La Defense.
The transaction is seen as a preferred alternative to a direct investment by the state or a state controlled entity in Groupama, aiming to preserve the insurer's independence, the two sources familiar with the talks said.
The idea of an all-share deal between Icade and SILIC emerged after CDC took part in the rescue of Belgian lender Dexia earlier this year, leaving it cash-strapped.
The deal would also be beneficial to Groupama because it would still have access to profits from SILIC, one of its few profitable investments.
CDC would also invest 300 million euros in Groupama's broker GAN Eurocourtage, the two sources close to the talks said.
MORE NEEDED
The insurer would still need to raise between 2 billion and 3 billion euros of extra capital even after these deals next year, bankers and analysts said.
Groupama will need to pursue more asset disposals in early 2012 and a deal on SILIC won't leave it with sufficient flexibility to play hard ball with possible buyers for the rest of its disposals, bankers said.
And a perception of Groupama as a "distressed" seller means any transaction would face tough talks with potential bidders, bankers reviewing Groupama's assets said.
Early stage discussions with AXA (AXAF.PA), Allianz (AGMPX.O) and CNP Assurances (CNPP.PA) over a mix of life insurer GAN Vie and Gan Assurances recently stalled as preliminary offers fell short of the 700 million euro minimum set by Groupama.
Groupama is also hoping to raise 1 billion euros through the sale of GAN Eurocourtage. The broker's recapitalization by CDC could be a way to make it more attractive, a banker close to the talks said, adding that Allianz, Lloyds, Generali, RSA and Tokio Marine are among the likely bidders.
Groupama, SILIC, Icade, AXA, CNP Assurances declined to comment. Caisse de Depots was not available to comment.



ovviamente se ci fosse un mercato che torna alla normalitá cambierebbe tutto, visto che con la salita dei mercati, tornerebbe a salire anche il solvency.


per fortuna groupama ha asset che qualche cosa valgono. potenziali vendite futuri possono essere

http://gan-eurocourtage.fr/Pages/default.aspx circa 1 bln

https://www.groupama.co.uk/policyholder braccio assicurativo di groupama in uk per circa 300 milioni pound.


poi c'é gan assicurazioni, ma mi sembra un asset piú difficoltoso da vendere a un prezzo decente.


cmq aspettiamo di vedere SE effettivamente vendono SILIC e poi si vedrá.


da dire che il vecchio managment ha gestito veramente male questa societá, si é ingradita troppo rapidamente, e pensare che pochi anni fa era una delle assicurazioni meglio capitalizzate di francia...
 
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negusneg

New Member
Banks use bond workouts to build capital muscle

Tue, Dec 6 2011
* Santander, BNP, Barclays opt for "liability management"
* Offers lift banks' capital, clean up balance sheets
* Bondholders given a premium to market price
* Not always a win-win, can anger debt investors
By Steve Slater
LONDON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Europe's banks, under pressure from regulators to bolster their capital, are resorting to buying back their own bonds on the cheap, risking an investor backlash if they try to squeeze bondholders too hard.
Under these so called "liability management" exercises (LME), banks offer to buy back or swap their bonds at a premium to the market price but a discount to par value. If a bank's bonds are trading at 60 cents in the euro, for example, it can pay 70 cents, giving a premium to the investor and making a capital gain of 30 percent.
More than a dozen banks have announced such offers in the last month, potentially contributing over 8 billion euros ($10.8 billion) to their capital rebuilding effort, including Santander , BNP Paribas, Barclays and Commerzbank.
In principle, both sides of the deal should be satisfied. Investors cut the losses on bonds they are holding, while banks book a capital gain and clean up their balance sheet by buying back and cancelling hybrid capital that will not qualify as core capital under new global rules.
But such deals risk angering debt investors if they regard the terms as too stingy, as Santander found out when there was a huge backlash to its offer three weeks ago.
"From an equity perspective it's good, from a bank capital perspective it's good, but it's not always a good event for the bond investor. It can be, but it's not always," said Chris Bowie, head of credit portfolio management at Ignis Asset Management, which invests 40 billion pounds ($63 billion) in fixed income.
Less than a quarter of investors signed up to swap up to 6.8 billion euros of Santander's subordinated bonds into new senior debt, unhappy at the slim premium and low interest rate on the new bonds and the prospect of getting stuck with illiquid bonds. Santander also signalled it will not 'call' the bonds early, or repay them before they mature, as is typical.
"A lot of bond investors were very upset by this. They (Santander) have tarnished their reputation for any future funding they want to do," said Ignis's Bowie, adding it was likely to increase the future cost of funding for Santander.

MORE INVESTOR FRIENDLY
Offers by Barclays and others since have been regarded as more investor friendly, though each has to be judged on its own merits, investors and analysts said.
Barclays is offering to buy back up to 2.5 billion pounds of its bonds, and could make a gain of more than 500 million pounds if the offer is fully taken up, according to Reuters calculations, and potentially more from other hybrid capital it holds.
Other big names to launch liability management exercises in recent weeks include UniCredit, Societe Generale , Lloyds, and mid-sized lenders Popular , Sabadell, Bankia, Bank of Cyprus , Banco Espirito Santo and EFG International.
More are likely to follow, possibly Royal Bank of Scotland and Deutsche Bank, analysts said.
The flurry of activity, reminiscent of a wave of offers in 2008, has been sparked by depressed bond prices, a minimum core capital requirement of 9 percent, and stricter rules on what qualifies as core capital.
The process is helping banks meet a capital shortfall, which the European Banking Authority (EBA) estimated at 106 billion euros and said must be filled by mid-2012.
"It's a start, but it's not going to be the solution (to all capital needs)," said Chris Wheeler, analyst at Mediobanca.
"Across Europe you'll see more of these activities as part of the EBA exercise of meeting capital," he said, adding they were also attractive for banks holding hybrid debt that would no longer qualify under Basel III rules as core capital.
UK banks have further incentive to act as they will need to hold debt that can be "bailed in" -- where bondholders will have to share the burden of bailing out a bank -- and are cleaning up their balance sheets in preparation for that.
Barclays Capital analysts estimated that 14 of the euro zone's biggest banks alone could raise 14.6 billion euros from liability management.
The trend may please regulators as well as banks. It improves the amount and quality of capital held, but not at the expense of cutting loans that could damage economic recovery.
Some investors such as hedge funds are keen, too, as they can buy bonds at a depressed price in the hope of making a quick profit on an LME. But it can be a risky business.
"Recent skinny LME premiums with the alternative of remaining in a far less liquid rump, together with high volatility which can wipe out premiums in a day, suggests that the 'chasing LMEs' trade is a brave one," said Jackie Ineke, bond analyst at Morgan Stanley.
 

Zorba

Bos 4 Mod
S&P says euro zone may need another shock


Jean-Michel Six, chief economist of the agency that shocked financial markets last week by putting 15 euro zone countries on a watch for a potential downgrade, said last week's EU summit agreement was a significant step forward, but not enough.

"There is probably yet another shock required before everybody in the euro zone reads from the same page, for instance a major German bank experiencing some real difficulties on the markets, which is a genuine possibility in the near term," Six told a business conference in Tel Aviv.

"Then there would be a recognition that everybody is indeed on the same boat and that even German institutions can be affected by this contagion. I'm afraid this may still be required."


Mi era sfuggita... Si riferiva a DB o a COBA?:-?

Forse è la peggior notizia della giornata.
 

OdioGliAcronimi

Forumer attivo
Mi tenta solo il fatto che Ne ho comprate Venerdì a 46 :) :)
Peraltro Concordo pienamente. La daremmo a 56 una perpetual cumulativa equivalente di Bancaintesa? Non penso. E ING è la Bancaintesa dell' Olanda. Quotavano 75 in primavera... Se anche non facessero mai la call, un titolo che all'atto pretico mi da 2xTasso a 10 anni + 0.2% non è male.

Peraltro, a pensarci bene, anche tenendo conto che sono in po' sovraccarico di ING, quasi quasi se domani quotano ancora bene, ne vendo una parte (chessò, un 30%) e switcho su qualcuna si quelle che mi ispirano ancora di più...
 
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