Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (7 lettori)

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negusneg

negusneg

New Member
Hypo Real Estate sta preparando il bilancio 2008:

http://www.hyporealestate.com/eng/pdf/032809_PI_HREG_Abschluss_2008_Englisch_EndfassungOZ.pdf

E' ufficiale, le perpetue di Depfa non pagheranno le cedole.

Sorprendentemente, però, Depfa chiude il 2008 in utile, anche se solo di 17 mln €. :up:

Results of subsidiary banks; servicing of profit-participation certificates
and tier 1 and upper tier 2 instruments

As already announced, Hypo Real Estate Bank AG has posted a net loss for
the year: the result before taxes (in accordance with German GAAP - 'HGB')
was EUR -2.8 billion, with a net retained loss of EUR -2.6 billion. Interest
on profit-participation certificates issued by Hypo Real Estate
Bank AG after preparation of the 2008 financial statements and due for
payment in 2009 will not be paid. Profit-participation certificates with final
maturity on 31 December 2008 participate in the loss on a pro-rata basis;
accordingly, they will not be repaid at par, but their nominal amount will be
reduced by the amount of the pro-rata loss.

As a result of the net retained loss, Hypo Real Estate Bank AG will not make
any distributions in 2009 on its Hypo Real Estate International Trust I tier 1
bond. Furthermore, within the scope of its corporate planning, the
Management Board of Hypo Real Estate Bank AG envisages the bank to
post losses for at least the next two years. Based on this assumption, the
holders of profit-participation certificates and tier 1 bonds would not receive
any distributions for the relevant periods, and the profit-participation
certificates would share the pro-rata losses.

DEPFA Deutsche Pfandbriefbank AG posted a transferable profit of EUR 17
million after taxes, resulting in a breakeven net retained profit. Therefore,
profit-participation certificates issued by DEPFA Deutsche Pfandbriefbank
AG must be serviced in full for financial year 2008.

The Board of Directors of DEPFA BANK plc has decided that tier 1
instruments guaranteed by DEPFA BANK plc and upper tier 2 instruments
of DEPFA BANK plc will not be serviced in 2009.
 
Onoff

Onoff

Forumer attivo
negusneg ha scritto:
Hypo Real Estate sta preparando il bilancio 2008:

http://www.hyporealestate.com/eng/pdf/032809_PI_HREG_Abschluss_2008_Englisch_EndfassungOZ.pdf

E' ufficiale, le perpetue di Depfa non pagheranno le cedole.

Sorprendentemente, però, Depfa chiude il 2008 in utile, anche se solo di 17 mln €. :up:

Results of subsidiary banks; servicing of profit-participation certificates
and tier 1 and upper tier 2 instruments
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Grazie Negus,
È uno stillicidio di notizie: la cedola gliela lascio "volentieri" per questo anno.
Sono le preferred shares che si possono tenere.
La notizia dei 17 ML mi sembra buona. :up:
Sperem di portare a casa il ..... ;)
 

Imark

Forumer storico
i98mark ha scritto:
Infatti Negus, e magari esaminando il testo di quel Banking Act 2008 menzionato da S&P nel commento alla rating action si può anche capire se quanto deciso in merito a B&B abbia caratteristiche di singolarità ovvero se, come pure è possibile che sia, che si tratti di un'applicazione specifica di un potere di intervento generale esercitabile in situazioni analoghe.

Se così fosse, sarebbero potenzialmente esposte ad un analogo rischio anche le subordinate LT2 di altre banche inglesi.

Inoltre, mi chiedevo, la prerogativa del deferral sul pagamento della cedola è senz'altro propria (anche) delle UT2, ma quella del differimento della restituzione del capitale a scadenza finisce invece per dare allo strumento quella indeterminatezza nella durata propria dei perpetuals, se ad essa fosse davvero data attuazione.

Il richiamo di S&P alla figura dell'UT2 (piuttosto che di uno strumento con dei tratti da Tier 1) muove probabilmente dall'assunto della temporaneità della misura di legge e del ripristino dello status quo ante una volta che B&B sia in grado di rendere all'agenzia statale il finanziamento che ha ricevuto.

Ma se anche al differimento del rimborso del capitale si dovesse arrivare, mi chiedo se la qualificazione dello strumento da parte delle agenzie non cambierebbe ulteriormente (non rammento a memoria se il differimento del ripagamento del capitale a scadenza sia una disposizione compatibile con lo status contrattuale di uno strumento UT2).

Resta tuttavia che il Governo inglese ha tracciato una linea netta fra i bond bancari senior da un lato e tutto il resto (inclusi i LT2) dall'altro.

PS: a me risultava che anche il Governo danese avesse fatto qualcosa del genere (due le banche salvate lì in autunno, non fra le maggiori), anche se solo da notizie di stampa, e non da report di agenzie, non avendo seguito quella vicenda da vicino.
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Rammentavo bene... ed infatti Moody's ha downgradato tutto il debito subordinato ed ibrido di banche danesi sulla base di considerazioni di ordine sistemico, legate appunto alla manifesta volontà del governo locale di non estendere il supporto pubblico a queste tipologie di debito bancario.

Si ripercorrono espressamente i comportamenti delle autorità danesi nei due casi di salvataggio posti in essere in autunno (Roskilde Bank e Fionia Bank) e si fa riferimento ad altre banche di minori dimensioni.

Insomma, se volete puntare su di un bond subordinato o ibrido "distressed", evitate quelli emessi da banche danesi... :cool:

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Moody's downgrades subordinated and hybrid debt issued by Danish banks[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]London, 25 March 2009 -- Moody's Investors Service has today taken negative rating actions on a number of subordinated and hybrid debt instruments issued by Danish banks. The action was prompted by the expectation that systemic support would not extend to these instruments following financial distress. The subordinated and hybrid debt affected is issued by Danske Bank, Jyske Bank, Sydbank, Spar Nord Bank and FIH. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]In its Special Comment entitled "Moody's Assesses Bank Hybrid Securities in the Context of the Current Credit Crisis", dated December 2008, Moody's began a dialogue with market participants regarding a potential change to its bank hybrid notching practices. The proposal explored the possibility of removing systemic support from bank hybrid ratings and considered wider notching based on the hybrid's risk characteristics. This process continues for banks generally, but as Moody's noted in its Special Comment, subordinated and hybrid ratings will be adjusted as appropriate should circumstances warrant as is the case for Danish subordinated and hybrid bank debt. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Moody's ratings on banks' subordinated and hybrid securities generally reflect the assumption that if a government extends financial support to a bank in difficulty, that support would also benefit subordinated and hybrid investors. Moody's has observed that Danish systemic support to banks has been limited to senior debt and deposits only. As demonstrated during recent restructuring measures instigated by the Danish government for Roskilde Bank and Fionia Bank, the subordinated and hybrid debt did not benefit from support measures, resulting in possible losses to investors that are more closely aligned to the bank's unsupported or intrinsic strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]In the case of Roskilde Bank all assets and debt and other liabilities were acquired by the Financial Stability Company (FSC), a government-owned entity, except for subordinated and hybrid debt. If a subsequent sale of Roskilde's assets by the FSC results in a surplus after having redeemed in full the senior debt which funded the acquisition, the subordinated and hybrid debt investors may receive some compensation. Given the problems leading to the need of systemic support for the bank, Moody's believes it is highly likely that the holders of subordinated and hybrid debt will experience a substantial loss. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The solution for Fionia Bank was slightly different in the way that Fionia Bank entered into a framework agreement with the FSC whereby Fionia Bank will establish a new bank to which it will transfer all of its assets and liabilities except subordinated and hybrid debt. Fionia Bank remains the majority owner of the new bank but its shareholding will be pledged to the FSC, which will inject subordinated or hybrid debt into the new bank. Full compensation to the holders of subordinated and hybrid debt in Fionia Bank is uncertain as it will depend on the possible turn-around of the new bank and compensation would be payable only after the FSC has been redeemed in full. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]In light of these examples and some cases involving smaller local banks where subordinated and hybrid debt holders have not been supported, it is Moody's opinion that the resulting losses to subordinated and hybrid investors that are more closely aligned to the bank's BFSR. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Until now, Moody's has notched the ratings of Danish banks' subordinated and hybrid debt from the supported senior debt rating by one and two notches, respectively. Due to the observed lack of systemic support for these instruments in Denmark, going forward, in most cases the anchor for subordinated and hybrid debt notching will be the baseline credit assessment (BCA) which maps from the intrinsic strength of the bank as indicated by our published Bank Financial Strength Rating (BFSR). Moody's may provide limited benefit for systemic support for these instruments for issuers that are dominant in the financial system for a specific country and therefore are important for the financial stability in that country. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The actual notching for subordinated and hybrid debt relative to the anchor will remain unchanged reflecting the characteristics of the instruments, i.e. their relative subordination vis-à-vis each other in case of bankruptcy. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The subordinated or hybrid instruments of the following five banks have been affected by this action: [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• FIH, Subordinated debt rating affirmed at Ba3, the rating continues to be on review for further downgrade (see separate press release on FIH published today); [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Jyske Bank,Subordinated debt rating downgraded to A2 from Aa3 and hybrid debt to A3 from A1. The ratings carry a negative outlook; [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Spar Nord Bank, Subordinated debt rating downgraded to Baa1 from A2 stable outlook; [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Sydbank, Subordinated debt rating and hybrid debt downgraded to to A3 from A1 and Baa1 from A2, respectively, stable outlook; and [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Danske Bank, Subordinated and hybrid debt downgraded to A3 from A1 and Baa1 from A2, respectively. The outlook on the ratings is negative. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The subordinated and hybrid debt instruments of FIH, Jyske Bank, Spar Nord Bank and Sydbank are notched with one and two notches, respectively from their BCAs. For Danske Bank, the dominant financial institution in Denmark, its subordinated and hybrid debt ratings are notched from the A2 level. A2 is one notch above the bank's BCA of A3 reflecting Moody's expectation that there is limited scope for systemic support to these instruments given Danske Bank's relative importance to the Danish financial system. Danske Bank has a market share of lending and deposits in Denmark of around 30%. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The last rating actions on the above banks' subordinated and hybrid debt ratings are: [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• FIH, 25 March 2009, downgrade to Ba3, all ratings remains under review for further possible downgrade [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Jyske Bank, 12 November 2008 outlook of the bank's ratings changed to negative from stable [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Spar Nord Bank, 6 August 2007 when its subordinated debt ratings was assigned [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Sydbank, 10 April 2007 in relation to implementing the refinement of the joint default analysis [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]• Danske Bank, 13 February 2009, Subordinated and hybrid downgraded to A1/A2, stable outlook [/FONT]
 
solenoide

solenoide

Forumer storico
maxinblack ha scritto:
AXA S.A. DL-MED.-TERM NTS 2003(08/UND.)

http://anleihen.onvista.de/snapshot.html?ID_INSTRUMENT=8393861&SEARCH_VALUE=XS01679

, visto che spesso par;iamo di perpetual in euro e raramente di quelle in dollari volevo proporre alla vostra attenzione questa XS0167957983 mi sembra una primaria azienda di assicurazioni, qualcuno ne sa di piu'?
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Ciao,
trovi i prospetti Axa qui
http://www.axa.com/en/investor/listednotes/

Ho gia' caricato quello che ti interessa
http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/showpost.php?p=829784&postcount=39

qui invece i risultati 2008
http://www.axa.com/en/press/financialresults/

verra' proposto un dividendo di 0,40 Eur per il 2008 , non ho letto il prospetto ma credo che non ci siano problemi di pagamento cedola sui perpetual
 

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negusneg

negusneg

New Member
Anche oggi un po' tutte le perpetual sono in grande spolvero :up: :D

Generali 5,479% sta già oltre i 55, Intesa 8,047% a 53,50, PostBank III oltre i 30...

Ottima Axa, maxinblack, è fra le più difensive.

Colgo l'occasione per ricordare a tutti che c'è tempo fino a mezzanotte per iscriversi al registro elettorale nel primo 3D in evidenza. ;)
 
claudioborghi

claudioborghi

Twitter: @borghi_claudio
Subordinato Lottomatica - cedola pagata (non e' una sorpresa ma serve per aggiornare l'elenco) :up:

(approfitto, vi viene in mente qualche tier2 "safe side" con cedole che staccano nei mesi di Gennaio, Aprile, Agosto e Ottobre?)
 

rowing

Forumer attivo
solenoide ha scritto:
Ciao,
trovi i prospetti Axa qui
http://www.axa.com/en/investor/listednotes/

Ho gia' caricato quello che ti interessa
http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/showpost.php?p=829784&postcount=39

qui invece i risultati 2008
http://www.axa.com/en/press/financialresults/

verra' proposto un dividendo di 0,40 Eur per il 2008 , non ho letto il prospetto ma credo che non ci siano problemi di pagamento cedola sui perpetual
Clicca per allargare...

Quanto costano le perpetual axa in euro ..........grazie a presto
 
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