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negusneg

New Member
Ripropongo la mia domanda fiducioso che qualche amico del forum saprà darmi qualche indicazione
Io ho queste tre perpetue
BAYER 5% carico 92 scesa sotto 70
DEUTSCHE POSTBANK 2.12.2004 carico 75 scesa sotto 50
DEUTSCHE BANK 28.1.2005carico 83 scesa sotto 50
Si sono verificate le condizioni per sospendere le cedole?Sino a quando?
Al momento dell'acquisto ero consapevole che i corsi sarebbero potuti scendere di molto ma puntavo sulle cedole..... sperem che queste cisiano ancora

Ciao albicocco, per Deutsche Bank direi proprio di sì. I dati dell'ultimo trimestre sono stati disastrosi e porteranno ad una perdita sull'intero anno. :rolleyes:

Per DPB sappiamo già che Q4 sarà negativo, ma occorrerà avere i dati definitivi per sapere se saranno tali da azzerare i guadagni sull'intero 2008.

Quella messa meglio è indubbiamente Bayer. Anche qua mancano i risultati e occorrerà aspettare un po' di tempo, ma credo che non avranno problemi a pagare regolarmente.
 

claudio123

Nuovo forumer
Ciao albicocco, per Deutsche Bank direi proprio di sì. I dati dell'ultimo trimestre sono stati disastrosi e porteranno ad una perdita sull'intero anno. :rolleyes:

Per DPB sappiamo già che Q4 sarà negativo, ma occorrerà avere i dati definitivi per sapere se saranno tali da azzerare i guadagni sull'intero 2008.

Quella messa meglio è indubbiamente Bayer. Anche qua mancano i risultati e occorrerà aspettare un po' di tempo, ma credo che non avranno problemi a pagare regolarmente.

BARCLAYS BANK PLC EO-FLR-NOTES 2000(10/UND XS0110537429

Questo titolo ha pagato la cedola il 15/12/08......pero' vedo che la quotazione e' molto sacrificata e il titolo azionario peggio ancora......io le ho in carico a 100.......cosa mi consigli di fare vendere o tenere.......grazie
 

negusneg

New Member
BARCLAYS BANK PLC EO-FLR-NOTES 2000(10/UND XS0110537429

Questo titolo ha pagato la cedola il 15/12/08......pero' vedo che la quotazione e' molto sacrificata e il titolo azionario peggio ancora......io le ho in carico a 100.......cosa mi consigli di fare vendere o tenere.......grazie

Ciao claudio123, difficile dire, apparentemente chiuderanno il 2008 in attivo, certo che in generale le banche inglesi non sono messe un granchè bene.

Se vuoi ridurre il rischio potresti venderne metà e comprare una perpetual italiana che abbia lo stesso prezzo...


Barclays Says 2008 Profit to Beat Estimates After Shares Fall

By Jon Menon
Jan. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Barclays Plc, the U.K. bank that turned down government funding last year, said 2008 earnings will exceed analysts’ forecasts and called today’s 25 percent drop in London trading unjustified.
Barclays pretax profit in 2008 will be “well ahead” of analysts’ average estimate of 5.3 billion pounds ($7.8 billion), the bank said in a statement after the stock fell the most in two decades on speculation it needs more capital. Barclays’s American depositary receipts, down as much as 32 percent at 2:30 p.m. in New York, pared the drop to 14 percent following the statement.
Barclays, which acquired Lehman Brothers Holding Inc.’s North American trading and investment-banking operations last year, raised 7 billion pounds in November mainly from funds in Qatar and Abu Dhabi after the U.K. government forced it to boost capital. Citigroup Inc. posted an $8.29 billion loss today, twice as much as analysts estimated, while Bank of America Corp. posted its first loss since 1991. Both banks went back to the U.S. Treasury for second rounds of capital.
“Looking at the U.S. banking results, there may be much bigger writedowns to come” at Barclays, said Derek Chambers, a London-based analyst at Standard & Poor’s Equity Research Ltd. who has a “hold” rating on the stock. “It could leave them needing extra capital,” and Barclays may face more onerous terms than Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc and Lloyds Banking Group Plc got when they raised 37 billion pounds from the U.K. government.
Barclays and RBS declined on the day that a ban protecting 34 financial companies from short-selling was lifted by the U.K.’s Financial Services Authority.
Under Water
RBS, the biggest bank controlled by the British government, fell 13 percent to 34.7 pence in London. Shares of the company, which named Philip Hampton today as its new chairman after raising 20 billion pounds from the government, are down 89 percent from a year ago.
Barclays tumbled to 98 pence in London, extending this month’s decline to 36 percent, more than any other U.K. bank. Investors in Qatar and Abu Dhabi got securities paying 14 percent interest and options to buy as much as 1.5 billion pounds of Barclays stock at 198 pence a share last October. That’s twice as much as today’s closing price in London.
“The Board of Barclays knows of no justification for fall in the share price,” the bank’s statement said. Pretax profit reflecting all costs, impairment and market valuations will exceed analysts’ average estimate, the statement said. The bank’s equity Tier-1 capital at year end will be 6.5 percent, and Tier-1 capital will be 9.5 percent on a pro forma basis reflecting the conversion of notes, Barclays said.
Job Cuts
Barclays has cut more than 4,500 jobs in units including investment banking and consumer banking. It paid $1.75 billion for the trading and investment banking operations of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. in September.
Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling will announce a new round of guarantees for mortgages and corporate loans to spur U.K. bank lending as soon as next week, a person with knowledge of the plans said. The Times and Daily Telegraph newspapers today said the government is considering funding a so-called bad bank to absorb toxic loans.
“Maybe the concern is that the creation a bad bank would disadvantage banks” like Barclays that have taken lower writedowns on toxic assets than their peers, said Ian Gordon, an analyst at Exane BNP Paribas in London. He has a “neutral” rating on the stock.
“‘The bad bank option is certainly not a frontrunner,’’ a government official said.
Credit Default Swaps
Credit-default swaps on Barclays declined 2 basis points to 165, according to CMA Datavision prices at 4:45 p.m. in London.
Credit-default swaps are financial instruments based on bonds and loans that are used to speculate on a company’s ability to repay debt. They pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities or the cash equivalent should a borrower fail to adhere to its debt agreements. A decline indicates an improvement in the perception of credit quality.
A basis point on a credit-default swap contract protecting 10 million euros of debt from default for five years is equivalent to 1,000 euros a year.
‘‘What you typically see when you have government intervention is equities crash and at the same time there is no reaction on the CDS side,’’ said Tim Brunne, a Munich-based credit strategist at UniCredit SpA. ‘‘State interventions are credit positive but not good for owners of the companies.’’
To contact the reporter on this story: Jon Menon in London at [email protected]
Last Updated: January 16, 2009 16:16 EST
 

claudio123

Nuovo forumer
Ciao claudio123, difficile dire, apparentemente chiuderanno il 2008 in attivo, certo che in generale le banche inglesi non sono messe un granchè bene.

Se vuoi ridurre il rischio potresti venderne metà e comprare una perpetual italiana che abbia lo stesso prezzo...


Barclays Says 2008 Profit to Beat Estimates After Shares Fall

By Jon Menon
Jan. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Barclays Plc, the U.K. bank that turned down government funding last year, said 2008 earnings will exceed analysts’ forecasts and called today’s 25 percent drop in London trading unjustified.
Barclays pretax profit in 2008 will be “well ahead” of analysts’ average estimate of 5.3 billion pounds ($7.8 billion), the bank said in a statement after the stock fell the most in two decades on speculation it needs more capital. Barclays’s American depositary receipts, down as much as 32 percent at 2:30 p.m. in New York, pared the drop to 14 percent following the statement.
Barclays, which acquired Lehman Brothers Holding Inc.’s North American trading and investment-banking operations last year, raised 7 billion pounds in November mainly from funds in Qatar and Abu Dhabi after the U.K. government forced it to boost capital. Citigroup Inc. posted an $8.29 billion loss today, twice as much as analysts estimated, while Bank of America Corp. posted its first loss since 1991. Both banks went back to the U.S. Treasury for second rounds of capital.
“Looking at the U.S. banking results, there may be much bigger writedowns to come” at Barclays, said Derek Chambers, a London-based analyst at Standard & Poor’s Equity Research Ltd. who has a “hold” rating on the stock. “It could leave them needing extra capital,” and Barclays may face more onerous terms than Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc and Lloyds Banking Group Plc got when they raised 37 billion pounds from the U.K. government.
Barclays and RBS declined on the day that a ban protecting 34 financial companies from short-selling was lifted by the U.K.’s Financial Services Authority.
Under Water
RBS, the biggest bank controlled by the British government, fell 13 percent to 34.7 pence in London. Shares of the company, which named Philip Hampton today as its new chairman after raising 20 billion pounds from the government, are down 89 percent from a year ago.
Barclays tumbled to 98 pence in London, extending this month’s decline to 36 percent, more than any other U.K. bank. Investors in Qatar and Abu Dhabi got securities paying 14 percent interest and options to buy as much as 1.5 billion pounds of Barclays stock at 198 pence a share last October. That’s twice as much as today’s closing price in London.
“The Board of Barclays knows of no justification for fall in the share price,” the bank’s statement said. Pretax profit reflecting all costs, impairment and market valuations will exceed analysts’ average estimate, the statement said. The bank’s equity Tier-1 capital at year end will be 6.5 percent, and Tier-1 capital will be 9.5 percent on a pro forma basis reflecting the conversion of notes, Barclays said.
Job Cuts
Barclays has cut more than 4,500 jobs in units including investment banking and consumer banking. It paid $1.75 billion for the trading and investment banking operations of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. in September.
Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling will announce a new round of guarantees for mortgages and corporate loans to spur U.K. bank lending as soon as next week, a person with knowledge of the plans said. The Times and Daily Telegraph newspapers today said the government is considering funding a so-called bad bank to absorb toxic loans.
“Maybe the concern is that the creation a bad bank would disadvantage banks” like Barclays that have taken lower writedowns on toxic assets than their peers, said Ian Gordon, an analyst at Exane BNP Paribas in London. He has a “neutral” rating on the stock.
“‘The bad bank option is certainly not a frontrunner,’’ a government official said.
Credit Default Swaps
Credit-default swaps on Barclays declined 2 basis points to 165, according to CMA Datavision prices at 4:45 p.m. in London.
Credit-default swaps are financial instruments based on bonds and loans that are used to speculate on a company’s ability to repay debt. They pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities or the cash equivalent should a borrower fail to adhere to its debt agreements. A decline indicates an improvement in the perception of credit quality.
A basis point on a credit-default swap contract protecting 10 million euros of debt from default for five years is equivalent to 1,000 euros a year.
‘‘What you typically see when you have government intervention is equities crash and at the same time there is no reaction on the CDS side,’’ said Tim Brunne, a Munich-based credit strategist at UniCredit SpA. ‘‘State interventions are credit positive but not good for owners of the companies.’’
To contact the reporter on this story: Jon Menon in London at [email protected]
Last Updated: January 16, 2009 16:16 EST

Grazie per la risposta......ci pensero':)
 

Imark

Forumer storico
Dopo la nazionalizzazione di Anglo Irish Bank da parte dello Stato irlandese, S&P abbatte il rating dei perpetual emessi dalla banca a B e lo tiene in creditwatch negative, postulando non solo il differimento della cedola o del dividendo pagabile su questi strumenti, ma anche la possibilità che essi siano usati quali "loss absorbing instruments", ossia che sia fatta valere la eventuale presenza negli stessi di una clausola di loss absorpion che esponga il detentore a rispondere in quota parte delle perdite generate dalla banca.

Posto qui il più generale commento alla rating action di S&P.

Magari chi qui ha perpetuals delle banche irlandesi potrebbe sincerarsi della presenza di analoghe clausole negli strumenti detenuti, quantomeno per capire se si sia esposti ad un rischio di tale natura...

Anglo Irish Bank Corp. PLC 'A-/A-1' Ratings Remain On CreditWatch Negative Following Nationalization

LONDON (Standard & Poor's) Jan. 16, 2009--Standard & Poor's Ratings Services today commented on its CreditWatch placement of Anglo Irish Bank Corp. PLC.

The 'A-/A-1' long- and short-term counterparty credit ratings on Anglo remain on CreditWatch with negative implications, where they had been placed on Nov. 5, 2008. This follows the bank's nationalization by the government of the Republic of Ireland (AAA/Negative/A-1+).

At the same time, the ratings on the bank's undated perpetual instruments were lowered to 'B' from 'BB' and remain on CreditWatch with negative implications, where they had been placed on Nov. 5, 2008. The ratings on debt instruments issued by the bank and covered by the Irish government guarantee are unchanged.

On Jan. 15, 2009, the government of Ireland decided not to proceed with the €1.5 billion recapitalization of the bank announced on Dec. 21, 2008, which was to be in the form of deeply subordinated capital instruments, but instead to wholly nationalize the bank. Anglo's shares have now been suspended and we understand that a bill will be presented to the Irish Parliament next Tuesday to give the government of Ireland 100% of the bank's equity.

The government has stated that the bank will continue to trade, and that a new board and management will be appointed. The government has not said how long it intends to own the bank, nor the nature of activities that it expects the bank to undertake in the future.

"The ratings on Anglo incorporate a significant amount of uplift beyond its stand-alone credit strength, as a result of the support the bank is
receiving--and is expected to continue to receive--from the Irish government, based on the bank's systemic importance to the Irish banking system. We have included notches of uplift beyond the bank's stand-alone credit strength since Sept. 30, 2008, following the implementation of the bank funding guarantee scheme by the government," said Standard & Poor's credit analyst Claire Curtin.

The Irish government has said that it intends that the bank will be run
on an arm's length basis as a commercial entity. The government's action
follows what it says was a weakening funding position of the bank. Serious corporate governance issues also emerged last month, which led to the
resignation of several board and senior management figures, which in our view damaged the reputation of the bank.

The lowering of our ratings on the undated perpetual instruments to 'B' reflects our view of the increased likelihood that these instruments will
defer interest or dividend payments as applicable. We consider that the
government is now more likely to use the hybrid instruments as loss absorbing instruments.

"Our CreditWatch placement reflects what we consider to be significant uncertainties about the future of the bank, such as the government's plans in relation to the bank's strategy, its funding plans, and capital requirements," added Ms. Curtin.

The CreditWatch placement is expected to be resolved following
discussions in the coming several weeks with the Irish authorities on these subjects, as well as the bank's management. Given the strong statements of support by the government, we do not expect that the ratings will be lowered by more than one notch and may be affirmed
 

albicocco

Forumer storico
Grazias semper ago vobis Negusneg ac Imark
Gentilissimi questa terribile clausola "loss absorbing instruments" vale anche per le mie sfigate
BAYER 5%
DEUTSCHE POSTBANK 2.12.2004
DEUTSCHE BANK 28.1.2005 ?
Da qualche parte avevo letto che qualche perpetua ha la possibilità di recuperare il dividendo non distribuito analogamente a certe ns. az risparmio.
Sapete per caso se qualcuna delle mie perpetue ha la clausola di recupero?
 

Imark

Forumer storico
Grazias semper ago vobis Negusneg ac Imark
Gentilissimi questa terribile clausola "loss absorbing instruments" vale anche per le mie sfigate
BAYER 5%
DEUTSCHE POSTBANK 2.12.2004
DEUTSCHE BANK 28.1.2005 ?
Da qualche parte avevo letto che qualche perpetua ha la possibilità di recuperare il dividendo non distribuito analogamente a certe ns. az risparmio.
Sapete per caso se qualcuna delle mie perpetue ha la clausola di recupero?

La Bayer mi sembra proprio di no, ma andrò a riguardarci per darti una risposta più precisa ... peraltro volevo aprire un 3D di monitoraggio di questo titolo che ho in portafoglio ... :)

Le altre due non mi ricordo se sono fra quelle "esaminate" sul FOL e se si è postato qualcosa in merito anche a questo genere di cedole... però se non sono lì e se non le ho commentate sul FOL, ci sta che non ne sappia nulla... :D ;)
 

Topgun1976

Guest
Avendo un cippino della BOI XS0125611482 mi sono letto il prospetto ed ho trovato questa postilla riguardante la clausola loss absorbing o qlc del genere la posto

Non si capisce se è solo sull 'interesse o anche sul capitale.


12323058891.jpg
 

Topgun1976

Guest
Ecco i prospetti
 

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negusneg

New Member
Il regolamento della Bayer è abbastanza complesso, ma prevede la possibilità (in certi casi l'obbligo) di recuperare le cedole.

In the case of a Cash Flow Event (as defined in “Conditions of Issue – Interest”), the Issuer shall not pay interest on the
Bonds. The Issuer is entitled to pay voluntarily such unpaid interest within one year following the Relevant Interest Payment
Date on which no interest was paid due to a Cash Flow Event and must pay such unpaid interest under certain
circumstances described in “Conditions of Issue – Interest”. The Issuer is also entitled, in its sole discretion, to defer
payments of interest on an Optional Interest Payment Date (as defined in “Conditions of Issue – Interest”). The Issuer
may pay such voluntarily deferred interest (in whole or in part) at any time upon due notice and it shall pay such voluntarily
deferred interest (in whole, but not in part) (i) if it decides to pay interest on an Optional Interest Payment Date
thereafter, or (ii) under certain other circumstances, but generally no later than 10 years from the date on which such​
interest was voluntarily deferred, as described in “Conditions of Issue – Interest”.

Ti allego qui sotto la Offering Circular.
 

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