Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1

[amorgos34]

Un saluto a tutti.

Una domanda al Negus (o chi avra' la cortesia di rispondermi)erdonatemi ma non mi è chiaro quando l'emittente può non pagare le cedole.

Mi spiego meglio:xs0131944323 Intesa è un perpetual senior,se Intesa per ipotesi l'anno prossimo va in rosso, puo' non pagarmi la cedola?Se l'anno dopo fa utili, mi paga solo la cedola di quell'anno?

Se la risposta è affermativa, l'unica differenza che vi è tra una perpetual senior e una subordinata è solo in caso di default?

Se fosse vero che Intesa (nel caso sopracitato)può non pagare la cedola, esistone delle obbligazioni perpetue "pure",cioè che pagano una determinata cedola per sempre?

 

[solenoide]

Ciao ,
senior e perpetual non stanno molto bene insieme forse ho capito male la tua domanda .
Copio dal prospetto :

Ranking
Subject to applicable law, the Bank’s obligations under the Subordinated Guarantees constitute unsecured obligations and will rank subordinate and junior to indebtedness of the Bank (other than any instrument or contractual right effectively ranking pari passu with the Subordinated Guarantees), pari passu with the most
senior preferred shares of the Bank, if any, and each other and senior to all its share capital of the Bank, including its preferred shares, ordinary shares and savings shares, and the holders of the LLC Preferred Securities and the Trust Preferred Securities, by their acceptance thereof, are deemed to agree to the foregoing subordination.

Come puoi notare e' senior unicamente rispetto alle azioni ma non e' da confondere con il debito senior unsecured (che non è subordinato)
Inoltre il perpetual e' non cumulative e pertanto se dovesse sospendere il pagamento della cedola ( nei casi previsti dal prospetto) quest'ultima sarebbe persa per sempre.
In caso di default i possessori di perpetual verrebbero appena prima degli azionisti e di gran lunga dopo i possessori di obbligazioni senior unsecured

Il prospetto e' qui :
http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/showpost.php?p=733872&postcount=7

 

[amorgos34]

Ciao,

ora mi è più chiaro.

Un'ultima domanda :esistono obbligazioni perpetue "normali"(e non ibride) :esempio una obbligazione General Electric nella quale GE si obbliga a darmi euribor 1Y +1,2%(per fare un esempio) per sempre.


P.S.sono entrato da alcune settimane nelle Argentina 2033 e nelle Peugeot2033 e con il resto del capitale che ho dedicato a questa asset allocation vorrei allungarmi ancora di piu'. Il rischio liquidita' non mi spaventa.


Grazie per la risposta.

 

[junior63]

Info su perpetual


Sono al mio primo post sul forum, è da un po' che vi seguo.
Vorrei comprare alcune perpetual di banche italiane ma non mi è chiaro una cosa.
Visto che la cedola non è sicura in quanto l'emittente in alcune condizioni può non pagarla, all'acquisto si deve comunque pagare il rateo oltre al prezzo di vendita?

Grazie

 

[fabriziof]

mi sto avvicinando al mondo dei perpetual e mi par di capire che la maggior parte di essi hanno la facoltà di non pagare le cedole in caso di mancati dividendi e così via.a voi che siete espertissimi chiedo se esiste un luogo dove trovare un elenco di perpetuals che sicuramente pagano sempre la cedola.per caso l'avete già postato?qualcuno di voi non è che può fornirmi le indicazioni di qualche bond che abbia queste caratteristiche?

 

[floppyone]

si devi pagare il rateo, la banca ti riconosce le relative imposte; ti conviene controllare che applichi il 12,5% e non il 27% come è successo a me.

 

[Topgun76]

Un consiglio a tutti i neofiti e quelli che si affacciano ora ai Perpetuals,prendetevi del tempo e leggetevi tutto il 3d

Ne vale la pena

 

[Imark]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Moody's affirms KBC's senior ratings, maintains negative outlook[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Ratings on hybrid securities downgraded [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Paris, May 20, 2009 -- Moody's Investors Service announced today that it has affirmed KBC Bank's Bank Financial Strength Rating (BFSR) at C+ and long-term debt and deposit ratings at Aa3. At the same time, KBC Group's long-term debt rating was also affirmed at A1. All long-term senior ratings and the bank's BFSR continue to carry a negative outlook. All short-term ratings were affirmed at Prime-1. Simultaneously, Moody's downgraded the ratings on the bank's hybrid instruments: [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]- the Perpetual Debt Securities issued by KBC Bank were downgraded to Baa1, on review for possible further downgrade, from A2, Negative outlook [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]- the Non-cumulative Trust Preferred Securities issued by KBC Bank Funding Trust II, III and IV were downgraded to B1, on review direction uncertain, from A2, Negative outlook. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]AFFIRMATION OF THE BFSR AND SENIOR DEBT RATINGS REFLECT SIGNIFICANT GOVERNMENT SUPPORT [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The rating action follows the release by KBC of its 1Q09 earnings and the announcement of a financial guarantee from the Belgian Government on the group's CDO portfolio and MBIA exposure. Given the adverse market environment, KBC has taken EUR3.8 billion of value adjustments on its Super Senior CDO portfolio and on its exposure to MBIA, bringing its net result for 1Q09 to minus EUR3.6 billion. KBC's CDO exposure is synthetic hence considered a derivative instrument that cannot be re-classified under IAS 39. Consequently, KBC's earnings continue to be impacted by mark-to-market evolutions. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]To alleviate the volatility stemming from these exposures and protect its franchise, KBC has announced that it will benefit from a guarantee from the Belgian Government through an asset relief program covering EUR20 billion worth of exposures. A EUR3.2 billion first loss tranche to be assumed by KBC is already covered by the bank's cumulative value adjustments to date. Beyond that first tranche, 90% of the losses will be covered by the Belgian State, thus off-setting the bulk of potential future incremental mark-to-market adjustments. As an additional measure, KBC will also draw on the EUR1.5 billion capital back-up facility provided by the Flemish Government in January 2009. Pro-forma of both the impact of the Belgian Government's guarantee package and the Flemish Government's capital injection, KBC Bank's tier 1 ratio stands at 11% as of end-March 2009. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Moody's notes KBC's first quarter results with underlying pre-tax profit of EUR667 millions and a Net Banking Income (NBI) of EUR987 millions, both above Moody's expectations, reflecting primarily the resilience of Belgian operations and stabilization of Merchant Banking activities. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Additional value adjustments taken by KBC during the quarter are in the upper range of stress scenarios that led to Moody's latest rating action (please refer to our Press Release dated 26 January 2009). In Moody's opinion, most of the potential risks stemming from the structured finance assets portfolio are now either covered by the guarantee or written-down. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]KBC's ratings also benefit from the capital buffer provided by the recent capital injections from the Belgian and Flemish Governments. The negative outlook continues to reflect Moody's expectation of deteriorating operating environments in the markets where KBC operates, and especially in Ireland, CEE and Russia. Moody's will also continue to monitor the effectiveness of the de-risking measures at KBC Financial Products (KBC FP). [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]DOWNGRADE OF HYBRID INSTRUMENTS REFLECT THE INCREASED RISK OF COUPON LOSSES [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The long-term ratings KBC Bank's Perpetual Debt Securities were downgraded to Baa1, under review for possible further downgrade, from A2, negative outlook. The wider notching of these instruments from the banks' long-term debt and deposit ratings reflects Moody's opinion of an increased likelihood of a coupon deferral. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]As the bank announced that no dividend would be paid to common shareholders, the dividend pusher is no longer an obstacle to non payment. However, the rating agency notes that the coupon payments on these instruments are cumulative and has to be paid in accordance with an Alternative Coupon Satisfaction Mechanism (ACSM), thereby limiting the loss severity of a coupon deferral if this were to occur. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The long-term ratings of the Non-cumulative Trust Preferred Securities issued by KBC Bank Funding Trust II, KBC Bank Funding Trust III and KBC Bank Funding Trust IV were downgraded to B1, under review direction uncertain, from A2, negative outlook. The wider notching of these instruments from the banks' long-term debt and deposit ratings reflects Moody's opinion of: [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica](i) an increased likelihood of a coupon non-payment due to the loss of protection from the dividend pusher after the bank has announced that no dividend would be paid to common shareholders, [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica](ii) the possibility that EU authorities' approval of the support package be contingent upon suspension of coupons on these instruments, and [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica](iii) the high loss severity in case of a coupon non-payment due to the non-cumulative nature of these instruments. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]RATING HISTORY AND MOODY'S METHODOLOGIES [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The last rating action on KBC Bank N.V. and KBC Group N.V. was on 26 January 2009, when Moody's downgraded KBC Bank's BFSR to C+ from B- and its long-term deposit and senior unsecured ratings to Aa3 from Aa2. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The negative outlook on KBC Bank's BFSR and long-term ratings was maintained. At the same time, KBC Group's long-term debt rating was also downgraded to A1 from Aa3, with a negative outlook.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Based in Brussels, KBC Group had total assets amounting to EUR347.4 billion at end-March 2009. KBC Group's consolidated total income for the three nine months of 2009 (IFRS) stood at minus EUR1,610 million, down from positive EUR2,084 million for the first three months of 2008. In the same period, the net profit group share stood at minus EUR3,600 million (Q1 2008: EUR554 million). At end-March 2009, KBC Bank's Tier 1 ratio stood at 11.0% on a proforma basis, including the guarantee through the asset relief programme (core Tier 1: 8.3%). [/FONT]

 

[amorgos34]

Mi sono passato il pomeriggio a leggere il 3d (la pagina numero uno , e dalla 101 a questa) :davvero molto istruttivo.
Mi sa che entrare adesso sia troppo tardi, mi correggo, penso sia troppo presto, confido in una correzione che non può non esserci visto l'andamento delle quotazioni delle ultime settimane.
Ciao a tutti e complimenti, devo dire la lettura mi ha (quasi)divertito

 

[cumulate]

l'ultimo default made in california influirà secondo voi sulle quotazioni dei perpetual ?
Il fondo di garanzia tra banche made in usa dice ch non ha quasi più riserve e ha deciso di aumentare l'aliquota di tassazione delle banche per rifinanziarsi. Quindi ?