Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (6 lettori)

[nik.sala]

Il Ministro delle finanze irlandese ha tuonato più volte che Anglo Irish non verrà liquidata. Se così fosse, forse le LT2 dovrebbero essere pagate regolarmente. In caso di mancato pagamento degli interessi o del principal sulle LT2, dovrebbe scattare la liquidazione di Anglo Irish (che il Ministro ha detto di voler evitare a tutti i costi, in quanto troppo onerosa).

Parliamo di una cosa molto rischiosa (PURA MUNNEZZA). Credo però che valga la pena di essere approfondita, in quanto le LT2 di Anglo-Irish quotano intorno a 35. Le LT2 di Depfa credo siano intorno a 70...

ANGLO IRISH BK07/17FLRMTN (WKN A0NXBN, ISIN XS0305277807) - Profil - Aktien, Aktienkurse - ARIVA.DE

a quanto mi risulta il rating delle lt2 di ANGLO è BB+
...ciofeche si, ma non fino in fondo...
...anche io son conviunto di un eventuale upside...
...nel frattempo, sto pesando si switchare alcuni disinvestimenti su
ALPHA
EFG 345
OEVAG 288 anche se non matura
HYPO RE (mirata da quando si prendeva a 35 ) anche se non matura
COBA (mirata quando si prendeva a 50 ) anche se non matura
...e poi c'è sempre, più che per il rendimento, l'opzione call a 100 di BACA...quello si che sarebbe un botto...

 

[Zorba]

Ottima considerazione ! tale ragionamento l ho fatto a ott 09 e ho comprato a 42!

E' mia ferma intenzione raddoppiare esposizione aspetto dettagli piano bad bank da commissione europea congiuntamente ad ANGLO x per entrare con decisione! ..... analogie con Bradford & Bingley non ne trovo .... E VOI????

a quanto mi risulta il rating delle lt2 di ANGLO è BB+
...ciofeche si, ma non fino in fondo...
...anche io son conviunto di un eventuale upside...

Ho visto che voi ne parlavate già da mesi delle LT2 di Anglo Irish. Ascoltando i discorsi dei parlamentari irlandesi, ho capito che una delle loro più grandi preoccupazioni è quella di attirare gli investitori nel loro paese: per cui dubito fortemente che l'Irlanda introduca una legge ad hoc per gli LT2 (stile UK per Bradford & Bingley).
La stessa UK era stata fortemente criticata e - se ho ben inteso - B&B è stato l'unico caso; la cosa non è più stata ripetute ad es. per Northern Rock.
Rimane da capire se un'eventuale divisione di Anglo Irish in due parti possa avere conseguenze particolarmente negative, tenendo conto che (i) NAMA si ciuccia già tutti gli asset tossici, (ii) il governo ci metterà a breve altri 20 bln e (iii) il default sugli LT2 implicherebbe la liquidazione dell'emittente.

E' da studiare bene.

 

[Zorba]

Ireland’s ‘Worst Fears Surpassed’ on Banks’ Capital (Update1)

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By Dara Doyle and Colm Heatley

March 30 (Bloomberg) -- Ireland’s banks may need at least 31.8 billion euros ($42.7 billion) in new capital after a real- estate slump left them crippled by mounting bad loans.
The fund-raising requirement was announced after the National Asset Management Agency, the country’s so-called bad bank, said it will apply an average discount of 47 percent on the first block of loans it is buying from lenders, and the financial regulator set new capital targets. The discount compares with the government’s initial 30 percent estimate.
“Our worst fears have been surpassed,” Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said in the parliament in Dublin today. “The detailed information that has emerged from the banks in the course of the process is truly shocking.”
The government’s aim is that the asset agency will free banks of toxic property loans and revive lending. First announced by Lenihan a year ago, the agency will eventually buy loans with a book value of 80 billion euros.
Allied Irish Banks Plc needs to raise 7.4 billion euros, while Bank of Ireland Plc will need 2.66 billion euros. Anglo Irish Bank Corp., nationalized last year, may need as much 18.3 billion euros, Lenihan said.
Asset Sales
Lenders must have a core Tier 1 capital ratio, a key measure of financial strength, of 8 percent, and an equity core Tier 1 capital of 7 percent, according to the regulator. They must “set out plans to ensure that capital is in place by the end of 2010,” it said.
The regulator has given Ireland’s banks 30 days to submit recapitalization plans. Dublin-based Allied Irish said in a statement that it will sell its stakes in banks in the U.S. and Poland and that this will meet a “substantial part” of its capital needs. It also plans a share sale.
Lenihan said in the parliament that if Allied Irish can’t raise enough capital privately, the state will step in and that it’s “probable” the government will have a majority stake in what was once Ireland’s largest company by market value.
“Allied Irish have a lot more to do, but at least they have time to do it,” said Kevin McConnell, head of research at Bloxham Stockbrokers in Dublin. “The fear was that they wouldn’t be given time and the government would move immediately.”
Cross-town rival Bank of Ireland also expects to raise a “substantial” part of its new capital privately, Lenihan said. He said the bank has a “strong future.”
Allied Irish American depositary receipts fell 5.9 percent to $3.37 as of 2:06 p.m. in New York. Bank of Ireland jumped 13 percent to $7.46 euros.
“The banks are undergoing major surgery via NAMA,” financial regulator Matthew Elderfield said at a press conference in Dublin. “Even after surgery, they will suffer losses in coming years. They need a transfusion now to speed their recovery and that of the economy.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Dara Doyle in Dublin at [email protected]; Colm Heatley in Belfast at [email protected]
Last Updated: March 30, 2010 14:12 EDT

 

[nik.sala]

Ho visto che voi ne parlavate già da mesi delle LT2 di Anglo Irish. Ascoltando i discorsi dei parlamentari irlandesi, ho capito che una delle loro più grandi preoccupazioni è quella di attirare gli investitori nel loro paese: per cui dubito fortemente che l'Irlanda introduca una legge ad hoc per gli LT2 (stile UK per Bradford & Bingley).
La stessa UK era stata fortemente criticata e - se ho ben inteso - B&B è stato l'unico caso; la cosa non è più stata ripetute ad es. per Northern Rock.
Rimane da capire se un'eventuale divisione di Anglo Irish in due parti possa avere conseguenze particolarmente negative, tenendo conto che (i) NAMA si ciuccia già tutti gli asset tossici, (ii) il governo ci metterà a breve altri 20 bln e (iii) il default sugli LT2 implicherebbe la liquidazione dell'emittente.

E' da studiare bene.

...corereggimi se sbaglio, non mi risulta che gli lt2 di north.rock siano stati messi da qualche parte nella bad bank o chi per essa...la banca è stata nazionalizzata, azionisti ma obbligazionisti a parte i perp

 

[Zorba]

...corereggimi se sbaglio, non mi risulta che gli lt2 di north.rock siano stati messi da qualche parte nella bad bank o chi per essa...la banca è stata nazionalizzata, azionisti ma obbligazionisti a parte i perp

Tra l'altro la bad bank di Northern Rock sembra essere performing...
Mi sa che non ho mai capito un cazz..

N Rock ‘bad bank’ set to return to profit

By Sharlene Goff, Retail Banking Correspondent
Published: March 10 2010 09:40 | Last updated: March 10 2010 23:52

Northern Rock’s old loan book, dubbed its “bad bank” because of the once dire quality of its assets, is on course to return to profit as early as this year, well ahead of the so-called good part of the nationalised lender.
Gary Hoffman, Northern Rock’s chief executive, said the asset management business that includes the portfolio of “Together” mortgages – the controversial loans that offered up to 125 per cent of a property’s value before the housing crash – had “turned the corner” and was “likely to move into profit quite quickly”.

Northern Rock: On the road to recovery




“Everyone thinks of this as the ‘bad’ bank,” said Mr Hoffman. “But looking at its characteristics, only 8 per cent of loans are in arrears and the peak of impairments is behind us.”
Meanwhile, profits at the newly formed Northern Rock plc, the small, deposit-rich bank earmarked for sale because of its ongoing profit potential, could be constrained until well into 2011.
This part of Northern Rock is one of the best-capitalised banks in the industry with £19.5bn ($29.2bn) of retail deposits and only £10bn of mortgages. But this means it is paying interest on a savings book that is almost double the size of its mortgage pool.
Northern Rock is also having to pay a fee for the extra government guarantee it is providing its saving customers until at least the end of May.
Announcing the bank’s full-year results on Wednesday, Mr Hoffman said he expected the performance of the “good” bank to improve as it increased lending – under government-set targets it is aiming to provide up to £9bn of new mortgages in 2010 compared with £4bn in 2009.
But he admitted it would be difficult for the division to turn a profit this year.
Northern Rock still has a much higher level of arrears than the industry as a whole, predominantly due to the legacy left by its Together loans.
Mr Hoffman said Together loans accounted for “a third of our balance, half our arrears and three-quarters of repossessions”.
However, there was a considerable improvement in loan losses in the second half of the year and further improvement is expected in 2010.
Impairment charges fell to £442m in the second half from £602m in the first six months, and the number of customers in arrears stabilised in the final quarter of the year.

 

[wartburg_12]

yes !

wartburg ciao

potresti descrivere questi metodi di persuasione , che potrebbero essermi utile ?

Grazie

ciao, quello che ha funzionato è questo :
http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/t...sulle-obbligazioni-perpetue-vt37331-1606.html

.. ne avevo provati anche altri + 'ufficiali' che sono elencati qui :

http://www.investireoggi.it/forum/come-comprare-bond-entro-1-anno-dallemissione-vt52780.html

Ma con questi finora avevo trovato un muro di gomma ... (ndr. dicesi muro di gomma quando loro sono molto gentili ed educati ma ti girano così bene la frittata che alla fine tu gli chiedi scusa per avergli rotto i .... )

.... p.s. non che così mi abbiano spalancato le porte della banca ... me ne hanno comprato solo una, per averne altre ci sarà da sudare ancora ...

 

[Zorba]

Sto dando un'occhiata a cosa è successo a N Rock per capire cosa potrebbe succedere a Anglo Irish. N Rock era stata divisa in due:
- La good company, vale a dire la nuova banca;
- La società di asset management, che è la vecchia banca a cui sono rimasti i vecchi muti ipotecari.

I debiti subordinati sono rimasti nella vecchia banca e seguiranno le regole previste da ciascun prospetto (per cui non era stata fatta alcuna porcata tipo B&B). Gli LT2 continuano a pagare le cedole e ad essere rimborsati a scadenza.

Qualcuno ha idea d quanto quotino gli LT2 di N Rock?


08/12/2009 Northern Rock Legal and Capital Restructure

Please Note: This article pre-dates the company restructure of 01 January 2010

• HM Treasury has today made The Northern Rock plc Transfer Order 2009 to implement the legal and capital restructure of the Company
• This is an important milestone for Northern Rock
• The legal and capital restructure will complete on 1 January 2010
• Customers need take no action and they can continue to contact Northern Rock in the usual ways

Overview
Northern Rock plc (the Company) confirms that HM Treasury has today made the Northern Rock plc Transfer Order 2009 (the Transfer Order) which will effect the legal and capital restructuring of the Company on 1 January 2010 (the Transfer Date). This Transfer Order provides the legal mechanism through which the restructure will be implemented.
The Transfer Order will be published on the website of the Office of Public Sector Information (http://www.opsi.gov.uk). The Transfer Order and the Transfer Administration Agreement (an agreement made in connection with the Transfer Order) and related documents are also available on the HM Treasury website (www.hm-treasury.gov.uk.)
As previously announced, the restructuring will result in two separate companies:

• Northern Rock plc– a new savings and mortgage bank that will hold and service all customer savings accounts (balances are currently approximately £19 billion) and approximately £10 billion of mortgages. The new bank will be regulated as a deposit taker and mortgage lender by the FSA. It will offer new savings products and will also offer new mortgage lending to increase mortgage supply and help sustain a competitive market. Northern Rock plc will also hold certain wholesale deposits.
• Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc– the existing company (renamed) which will hold and service the majority of the existing residential mortgage book (approximately £50 billion) and will be regulated by the FSA as a mortgage provider, not a deposit taking bank.
  
  At the Transfer Date, it is expected that over 90% of the mortgages held by Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc will be fully performing and not in arrears. The portfolio will include the Company’s residual interest in those mortgages which have been sold to the Granite securitisation programme and the Northern Rock covered bond programme (totalling approximately £38 billion). This company will not offer any new mortgage lending.
  
  Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc will also continue to hold all unsecured loan accounts, the Government loan and the Company’s outstanding wholesale funding and subordinated debt as at the Transfer Date. As part of the restructure, the Government loan will increase by approximately £8 billion to provide cash to be transferred to the new bank to support its retail deposit book and new lending activity.

The restructure provides a more capital efficient structure, with total capital required for the two companies being within the £3 billion level announced in August 2008. At the Transfer Date, HM Treasury will hold (through its nominee) the paid up share capital of the new bank which will be £1.4 billion (1.4 billion ordinary shares of £1 each). HM Treasury has also committed to ensure that Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc meets its regulatory capital requirements by undertaking to provide capital of up to £1.6 billion, if such capital is required.
As previously announced, the European Commission confirmed on 28 October 2009 that it had approved the restructuring plan for Northern Rock. The Company continues to work closely with the FSA to gain the necessary regulatory approvals for the two companies.
Customers
For Northern Rock customers it is business as usual and they need take no action. All savings accounts will be transferred to the new bank, Northern Rock plc, on 1 January 2010. The majority of mortgage accounts will remain in the existing company, Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc, and a proportion of mortgage accounts will be transferred to the new bank, Northern Rock plc, also on 1 January 2010. All customers will be informed in writing, during January, which company holds their account.
The aim is to make this process as seamless as possible for customers, who can continue to contact Northern Rock in the usual ways. There will be no changes to product terms and conditions as a result of the restructuring and both companies will continue to provide the same high level of service to customers.
Government Guarantee Arrangements
HM Treasury has today released details of the guarantee arrangements which will be put in place for Northern Rock plc and Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc, and which will apply following completion of the restructure. Full details of these announcements can be found on the HM Treasury website at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk..
Retail deposits will continue to be guaranteed in the new bank following the restructure. Given the Company’s good progress to date and the new bank’s strong capital and liquidity position, release of this guarantee will be reviewed by HM Treasury following completion of the restructuring. As previously stated by HM Treasury, any decision to release this guarantee is subject to a minimum notice period of three months and fixed term accounts will retain the guarantee for the term of the product.
Certain limited classes of wholesale deposits and borrowings of the new bank will be guaranteed until 31 December 2010.
The Government wholesale guarantees for the existing company, renamed Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc, will remain in place following completion of the restructure. Certain modifications are being made to those guarantees in connection with the restructure as described in the announcement by HM Treasury today. Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc will not hold any retail deposits and, therefore, will not have any retail guarantees.
Subordinated Debt
Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc will continue to be the borrower in respect of all Northern Rock subordinated debt outstanding at the Transfer Date. As previously announced, where the contractual terms allow, it will not call or pay principal or coupons on these instruments whilst it is in receipt of State Aid.
Any resulting deferral of subordinated debt payments will be made in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant instruments, including providing any required notice to note holders at the appropriate time.
Gary Hoffman, Chief Executive said:
“Today is a very important step towards completing the legal and capital restructure of Northern Rock into two separate companies on 1 January 2010.
“We want this to be a seamless process for our customers and they do not need to take any action. We will be writing to them in early January confirming which company holds their account – but we have already confirmed that all savings accounts will be in the new bank.
“I am pleased with the progress to date and all of the hard work colleagues are doing behind the scenes to ensure this is a smooth process for customers."

 

[maxinblack]

Analizziamo un po' cosa fa il nostro amico Dante che a me sembra un "drittone" alla Bosmed ma meno impulsivo.

Devo dire che e' sempre stato fonte di ispirazione sulle ciofeche tedesche

 

[Omero]

io sono un cassettista, ho cominciato ad accumulare da agosto scorso
ho venduto solo la lombarda
sono tagli da 1k, sono la componente speculativa del ptf al posto delle azioni che per la mia propensione al rischio e insonnia non vanno bene
quindi con 1-2-3k nominali ho diversificato e raggiunto circa il 10% del ptf
come vedi ho disponibilità econo,iche e modalità di investimento molto differenti dalla maggior parte del forum
ciao!

bene bene siamo almeno in due io al 6-7 % del portafoglio, non mi interessa fare trading ma avere un guadagno consistente anche aspettando qualche anno.
d'altronde per diversificare gli importi sono talmente ridotti su ogni titolo che un movimento di pochi punti percentuali rischia di non coprire le comissioni anche se sono già in guadagno su alcuni titoli presi pochi mesi fa.
Per me le perpetual sono la parte mediamente speculativa, un cuscitto fra azioni e senior, le vedo meno pericolose della azioni perchè se prese a prezzi elevati (ho evitato sempre di farlo) si rischia davvero di non recuperare in tempi credibili con loss absorption e TF e sono solo.

 

[Zorba]

Sto dando un'occhiata a cosa è successo a N Rock per capire cosa potrebbe succedere a Anglo Irish. N Rock era stata divisa in due:
- La good company, vale a dire la nuova banca;
- La società di asset management, che è la vecchia banca a cui sono rimasti i vecchi muti ipotecari.

I debiti subordinati sono rimasti nella vecchia banca e seguiranno le regole previste da ciascun prospetto (per cui non era stata fatta alcuna porcata tipo B&B). Gli LT2 continuano a pagare le cedole e ad essere rimborsati a scadenza.

Qualcuno ha idea d quanto quotino gli LT2 di N Rock?

LT2 di Angli Irish sembra in salita sui siti tedeschi.
ANGLO IRISH BK07/17FLRMTN (WKN A0NXBN, ISIN XS0305277807) - Profil - Aktien, Aktienkurse - ARIVA.DE

Inutile dire che le azioni BOI e AIB hanno meso il turbo...

Qualchuno ha idea quanto quotino gli LT2 di Northern Rock??