negusneg
New Member
Se pagano il dividendo sì, ma dubito seriamente che lo faranno, ora girano addirittura voci di delisting di Italease con un ulteriore peggioramento del Tier 1 di 40 bps...
Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (3 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione negusneg
- Data di Inizio
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- Tags
- additional tier 1 bail in basilea 3 coco bonds crd iv genussscheine grandfathering hybrid bond loss absorption lower tier 2 make whole amount matusalem bond obbligazioni irredimibili obbligazioni perpetue obbligazioni subordinate perpetual bond preference shares restricted tier 1 tier 1 upper tier 2
- Stato
Se pagano il dividendo sì, ma dubito seriamente che lo faranno, ora girano addirittura voci di delisting di Italease con un ulteriore peggioramento del Tier 1 di 40 bps...
marketa
Forumer attivo
Non lo sapevo......
Se non ti chiedo troppo mi faresti una tua personalissima classifica delle banche italiane (tenendo conto dei perpetuals)? Le migliori 3 insomma.....
normanno
Nuovo forumer
seguo da poco questo 3d e questo settore che trovo estremamente interessante, grazie allo spessore culturale di coloro che ci scrivono.
Vi chiedo pertanto scusa se faccio una domanda che probabilmente e' gia' stata fatta ( ma non ho avuto tempo di leggere tutte le puntate precedenti) :
quali banche usate per comprare questi strumenti?
sapete se Fineco o IW Bank permettono di farlo?
grazie a chi vorra' rispondere e saluti a tutti
dario lapi
γνῶθι σαυτόν
Con IWBank le obbligazioni OTC sono negoziabili, ma via telefono, non online.
negusneg
New Member
Si accende il dibattito politico in Germania su cosa fare con HRE
Steinbrueck Says Taking 75% of Hypo Real ‘Not Enough’ (Update3)
By Rainer Buergin and Brian Parkin
March 6 (Bloomberg) -- German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck said the state needs to gain more than 75 percent control of Hypo Real Estate Holding AG to save the lender, hastening Germany’s first bank nationalization since the 1930s.
Given the worsening financial crisis, the government may “sooner rather than later be faced with the difficulty that the survival of the bank is seriously endangered,” Steinbrueck told lawmakers in Berlin today. “We must make sure, by gaining a controlling majority, that the restructuring measures succeed.”
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition is at odds over how to apply a law that allows the state to seize the Munich-based property lender. Merkel’s Christian Democrats, wary of scaring off foreign investors, favor taking 75 percent plus one share, while many of their Social Democrat coalition partners want to take 90 percent or more of the lender’s stock.
After the law has been passed in April, attempts will be made at Hypo Real’s next general meeting to carry out a capital increase and a capital writedown, said Steinbrueck, a Social Democrat. If there is no majority for that or if implementation is delayed and instability lasts well into early summer, “it can’t be ruled out that the option to expropriate will be used.”
Economy Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, a member of the Christian Social Union, sister party to Merkel’s CDU, said he seeks “alternatives to expropriation,” WirtschaftsWoche magazine reported. An insolvency of the lender that takes account of “systemic risks” may be a preferable solution, the magazine cited him as saying.
Ministry Denial
“I can deny that Guttenberg called for the insolvency for Hypo Real,” an official who works for the ministry and requested anonymity said by phone. “It’s about a model for limited insolvency that’s tailored to financial markets in order to remain below the threshold of expropriation. Such a model has been under examination for quite some time.”
Merkel’s Cabinet agreed on a draft bill Feb. 18 allowing the state to seize Hypo Real Estate as a last resort after the government granted it 102 billion euros ($129 billion) of public funds and guarantees. Christian Democrats are leery of the measures as they lose voter support to the pro-business Free Democrats ahead of Sept. 27 national elections.
“Words such as expropriation, socialization and nationalization don’t chime with the views of the CDU’s or CSU’s core voters,” Manfred Guellner, the head of polling company Forsa, told Stern magazine March 4.
Chavez Comparison
Hermann Otto Solms, a lawmaker for the opposition Free Democrats, likened Steinbrueck in parliament to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, whose government has seized land from foreign-based companies. The Hypo law will hurt Germany’s investment climate, he told lawmakers.
“We need private capital, we need private investors, we need domestic and foreign investors who are ready to invest here, especially in the current crisis,” he said. With this law, “you’re destroying a fundamental right.”
Otto Bernhardt, Christian Democrat finance spokesman, said that the Social Democrat-run Finance Ministry is having “a change of plan undermining the principle of last resort.”
‘Change of Direction’
“This change of direction is not what we want in the CDU,” Bernhardt said yesterday in an interview. He urged changes to the draft bill in parliament today, including a more detailed explanation of the steps preceding any nationalization.
The Christian Democrats bowed to their coalition partners’ plan to allow for a forced takeover of Hypo after shareholders including J.C. Flowers & Co. LLC failed to agree on a price for selling their stock. Hypo’s shares plunged 92 percent since Sept. 25. Hypo Real fell 4.5 euro cents to 73 cents at 9:55 a.m. in Frankfurt.
Flowers still seeks a price for his stake in Hypo Real Estate that’s two to three times the current share price, Steinbrueck said. The government must make sure that it’s “not the taxpayer that’s getting expropriated,” he said.
Alexander Bonde, a lawmaker from the opposition Green Party, said Flowers is “blackmailing” Germany, behavior “that can’t be tolerated.”
Dirk Becker, an analyst at Kepler Capital Markets in Frankfurt, said the seizure of the bank is not inevitable. The government will initially seek the support of a majority of shareholders for a capital increase, following the letter of the draft law, Becker said in an interview.
“The point is the government wants to be forearmed if the shareholders reject the increase,” said Becker. “The financial market in Germany would go haywire. That’s why Merkel would need to act quickly with expropriation.”
Lawmakers have invited Flowers to state his case at a finance committee meeting on March 17, Bernhardt said.
Hypo Real Estate was worth more than 12 billion euros before Depfa Bank Plc, its Dublin-based unit, failed to get short-term funding in September as credit markets seized up. Its market capitalization has fallen to 152 million euros.
To contact the reporters on this story: Brian Parkin in Berlin at [email protected]; Rainer Buergin in Berlin at [email protected].
Last Updated: March 6, 2009 10:16 EST
Steinbrueck Says Taking 75% of Hypo Real ‘Not Enough’ (Update3)
By Rainer Buergin and Brian Parkin
March 6 (Bloomberg) -- German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck said the state needs to gain more than 75 percent control of Hypo Real Estate Holding AG to save the lender, hastening Germany’s first bank nationalization since the 1930s.
Given the worsening financial crisis, the government may “sooner rather than later be faced with the difficulty that the survival of the bank is seriously endangered,” Steinbrueck told lawmakers in Berlin today. “We must make sure, by gaining a controlling majority, that the restructuring measures succeed.”
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition is at odds over how to apply a law that allows the state to seize the Munich-based property lender. Merkel’s Christian Democrats, wary of scaring off foreign investors, favor taking 75 percent plus one share, while many of their Social Democrat coalition partners want to take 90 percent or more of the lender’s stock.
After the law has been passed in April, attempts will be made at Hypo Real’s next general meeting to carry out a capital increase and a capital writedown, said Steinbrueck, a Social Democrat. If there is no majority for that or if implementation is delayed and instability lasts well into early summer, “it can’t be ruled out that the option to expropriate will be used.”
Economy Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, a member of the Christian Social Union, sister party to Merkel’s CDU, said he seeks “alternatives to expropriation,” WirtschaftsWoche magazine reported. An insolvency of the lender that takes account of “systemic risks” may be a preferable solution, the magazine cited him as saying.
Ministry Denial
“I can deny that Guttenberg called for the insolvency for Hypo Real,” an official who works for the ministry and requested anonymity said by phone. “It’s about a model for limited insolvency that’s tailored to financial markets in order to remain below the threshold of expropriation. Such a model has been under examination for quite some time.”
Merkel’s Cabinet agreed on a draft bill Feb. 18 allowing the state to seize Hypo Real Estate as a last resort after the government granted it 102 billion euros ($129 billion) of public funds and guarantees. Christian Democrats are leery of the measures as they lose voter support to the pro-business Free Democrats ahead of Sept. 27 national elections.
“Words such as expropriation, socialization and nationalization don’t chime with the views of the CDU’s or CSU’s core voters,” Manfred Guellner, the head of polling company Forsa, told Stern magazine March 4.
Chavez Comparison
Hermann Otto Solms, a lawmaker for the opposition Free Democrats, likened Steinbrueck in parliament to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, whose government has seized land from foreign-based companies. The Hypo law will hurt Germany’s investment climate, he told lawmakers.
“We need private capital, we need private investors, we need domestic and foreign investors who are ready to invest here, especially in the current crisis,” he said. With this law, “you’re destroying a fundamental right.”
Otto Bernhardt, Christian Democrat finance spokesman, said that the Social Democrat-run Finance Ministry is having “a change of plan undermining the principle of last resort.”
‘Change of Direction’
“This change of direction is not what we want in the CDU,” Bernhardt said yesterday in an interview. He urged changes to the draft bill in parliament today, including a more detailed explanation of the steps preceding any nationalization.
The Christian Democrats bowed to their coalition partners’ plan to allow for a forced takeover of Hypo after shareholders including J.C. Flowers & Co. LLC failed to agree on a price for selling their stock. Hypo’s shares plunged 92 percent since Sept. 25. Hypo Real fell 4.5 euro cents to 73 cents at 9:55 a.m. in Frankfurt.
Flowers still seeks a price for his stake in Hypo Real Estate that’s two to three times the current share price, Steinbrueck said. The government must make sure that it’s “not the taxpayer that’s getting expropriated,” he said.
Alexander Bonde, a lawmaker from the opposition Green Party, said Flowers is “blackmailing” Germany, behavior “that can’t be tolerated.”
Dirk Becker, an analyst at Kepler Capital Markets in Frankfurt, said the seizure of the bank is not inevitable. The government will initially seek the support of a majority of shareholders for a capital increase, following the letter of the draft law, Becker said in an interview.
“The point is the government wants to be forearmed if the shareholders reject the increase,” said Becker. “The financial market in Germany would go haywire. That’s why Merkel would need to act quickly with expropriation.”
Lawmakers have invited Flowers to state his case at a finance committee meeting on March 17, Bernhardt said.
Hypo Real Estate was worth more than 12 billion euros before Depfa Bank Plc, its Dublin-based unit, failed to get short-term funding in September as credit markets seized up. Its market capitalization has fallen to 152 million euros.
To contact the reporters on this story: Brian Parkin in Berlin at [email protected]; Rainer Buergin in Berlin at [email protected].
Last Updated: March 6, 2009 10:16 EST
negusneg
New Member
Patrimonialmente vedo meglio Ubi e Pop. Milano, un gradino sotto Intesa e Unicredito e uno sotto ancora BP e MPS.
Il dividendo azionario credo che ragionevolmente verrà azzerato da tutte, anche per mettere fieno in cascina per rimborsare i Tremonti bond entro i primi quattro anni, per evitare le penali previste.
Diversa è la questione delle cedole sulle perpetual, credo che alla fine la maggioranza pagherà, ma occorrerà vedere caso per caso dopo i risultati definitivi 2008, sia alla luce delle varie clausole contrattuali, sia di un possibile intervento delle autorità di controllo.
marketa
Forumer attivo
MPS la vedi messa male ...... in borsa tutto sommato tiene un pò meglio delle altre
In europa invece quale banca ti piace?
negusneg
New Member
MPS la vedi messa male ...... in borsa tutto sommato tiene un pò meglio delle altre
In europa invece quale banca ti piace?
In generale BNP e Santander, ma se devo essere sincero non sto comprando titoli bancari in questo periodo.
marketa
Forumer attivo
Dimmi se sono un pazzo e se sto scrivendo ca.z..e: se io volessi scommettere 6.000 euro per comprare così: 1000€ per acq. VN 4.000 di Banco Popolare; 2.000 € per acq. VN 4.000 di UBI ; 2.000 € per acq. VN 4000 di Pop MI e poi 1.000 € per acq. VN 2000 di Intesa sarei un folle sciagurato? Anche se non pagassero per 1 o max 2 anni e se convertissero parte del nominale in azioni se le acq. a 25 o max 48 non dovrei rimetterci . Certo se fallissero allora cia a tutto......
Vorrei un tuo parere e magari anche di chi vuole. 
N.B. acq. di perpetuals
negusneg
New Member
Dimmi se sono un pazzo e se sto scrivendo ca.z..e: se io volessi scommettere 6.000 euro per comprare così: 1000€ per acq. VN 4.000 di Banco Popolare; 2.000 € per acq. VN 4.000 di UBI ; 2.000 € per acq. VN 4000 di Pop MI e poi 1.000 € per acq. VN 2000 di Intesa sarei un folle sciagurato? Anche se non pagassero per 1 o max 2 anni e se convertissero parte del nominale in azioni se le acq. a 25 o max 48 non dovrei rimetterci . Certo se fallissero allora cia a tutto......
N.B. acq. di perpetuals
Un folle sciagurato forse no, diciamo uno che se le va a cercare...
Poi dipende da molte cose, quale percentuale è del tuo portafoglio, in quanto tempo vorresti realizzare l'investimento...
Francamente sono molto attendista sulle perpetual, in particolare bancarie, vedo troppe incognite e troppi nodi che ancora devono venire al pettine. E le quotazioni in costante discesa sembrano darmi ragione, almeno per ora.
Anche se la tua idea, o il portafoglio di OdioGliAcronimi, da qui a qualche anno potrebbero essere vincenti.
Ma il timing rischia di essere sbagliato e quando girerà il vento ci sarà sicuramente tempo per rientrare, non credo proprio che se le strapperanno di mano, almeno per un bel po'...
- Stato