Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (5 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione negusneg
- Data di Inizio
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- Tags
- additional tier 1 bail in basilea 3 coco bonds crd iv genussscheine grandfathering hybrid bond loss absorption lower tier 2 make whole amount matusalem bond obbligazioni irredimibili obbligazioni perpetue obbligazioni subordinate perpetual bond preference shares restricted tier 1 tier 1 upper tier 2
- Stato
maxinblack
Forumer storico
Allego prospetto:
giannantonio3
Nuovo forumer
Ed io che pensavo a una bella farfallina (tipo quella di Susanna PetruniSpero che allora devolverai qualcosa a favore del mio progetto (The Negus Foundation ©): "Adotta un promotore (o un assicuratore) [o tutti e due]"
Oppure, se proprio vuoi, puoi cavartela frequentando il 3D "Bazze e bidoni", e contribuire alla causa svelando i "costi impliciti" dei vari prodotti.
Scegli tu...
P.S. Per le donazioni personali, sto ancora cercando una banca etiope a costo zero.
P.P.S. NO farfalline, NO ciondoli d'oro o bigiotteria all'ingrosso. Se vieni al meeting al massimo posso accettare doni in natura di modesto valore (vino, cioccolata, etc.
)
) cmq senza voler sviolinare sei una persona ammirevole per onestà e bravura! buona giornata ciao
reef
...
Mooooolto interessante varoon, domani me lo studio per bene
EUROPA - Press Releases - State aid: Commission recalls rules concerning Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital transactions for banks subject to a restructuring aid investigation
Brussels, 8th October 2009
State aid: Commission recalls rules concerning Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital transactions for banks subject to a restructuring aid investigation
Following questions from market operators regarding the possibility for banks which are the subject of pending European Commission investigations regarding the grant of restructuring aid to repay bonds before maturity, the Commission would like to recall that its Communication on restructuring aid to financial institutions of July 2009 (see IP/09/1180 and MEMO/09/350 ) sets out that "banks should not use state aid to remunerate own funds (equity and subordinated debt) when their activities do not generate sufficient profits”. In a restructuring context, measures which reduce the total amount of own funds (payments on hybrid instruments, avoidance of loss absorption, buy-backs, exercise of call options) are in principle not compatible with the objective of "burden sharing" (i.e. banks must pay a significant share of the costs of restructuring) and the "minimum necessary" requirement (i.e. the amount of state aid must not exceed the minimum necessary to allow the bank to restructure). For that reason, banks subject to a state aid investigation should consult the Commission before making announcements to the market concerning Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital transactions.
Transactions such as coupon payments, buy-backs and the exercise of call-options of Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital instruments reduce the total regulatory capital of a financial institution and put into question whether granted state resources were limited to the minimum necessary. Moreover, such measures may infringe the principle of burden sharing in so far as they protect the Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital holders from their exposure to the inherent risk of the investment.
Such transactions by financial institutions subject to restructuring obligations may therefore have implications for the compatibility of the aid received. On the other hand, the Commission may accept these transactions on the basis of a case by case assessment, after balancing the above mentioned principles of burden sharing and limiting aid to the minimum against the contribution of the transaction to the refinancing capability and return to viability of the institution. For that reason, banks subject to a state aid investigation should consult the Commission before making announcements to the market concerning Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital transactions.
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Secondo voi a chi è indirizzata in particolare?
Diciamo le inglesi e irlandesi messe peggio, alcune olandesi (quali?), qualche tedesca (HypoRe e Depfa, HSH, BayernLB, ma si sapeva).
Le emissioni ING che hanno cedole cumulative non dovrebbero essere coinvolte poichè il differimento della cedola genera comunque un debito (a differenza delle non cumulative).
Che ne dite?
reef
...
D'altra parte c'è il massimo interesse a mantenere più che affidabili le obb subordinate come fonte alternativa ai finanzamenti statali (vedi Unicredit e Intesa). Questa dichiarazione di agosto è stata, al momento, rispettata:
European banks prepare subordinated debt comeback
[SIZE=+1]European banks prepare subordinated debt comeback[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] By Jane Merriman LONDON, Aug 5 (Reuters) - European banks are readying a return to the subordinated bond market to help repair their balance sheets, aided by an investor rush for fat returns on these high-risk securities. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 'We have a number of mandates for new issues in the hybrid space,' said Thibaut Adam, head of capital markets structuring at BNP Paribas (Paris: FR0000131104 - news) . 'As the market is gradually reopening, issuers are keen to take their turn.' [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Prices for the riskiest subordinated bank bonds, known as Tier 1, fell off a cliff this year on fears banks, battered by the credit crisis, would not pay coupons or repay the bonds. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] There were no new issues of any subordinated bank bonds in the first four months of 2009. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Now the market has started to recover, with total European bank subordinated issuance in euros at 5.5 billion year-to-date. But this is down from 26 billion last year and 54 billion in 2007, according Societe General credit analyst Suki Mann. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] So far, few banks have actually skipped coupons or redemptions on these bonds, helping to spur a rally. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'My guess is banks will pay Tier 1 calls (redemptions) because they need to build goodwill among investors to rebuild capital via Tier 1 issuance,' said Simon Thorp, head of fixed income at asset manager Liontrust. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Barclays Plc Tier 1 bonds for instance, which sank as low as 10 cents in March, have since rallied to around 55 percent of face value, while UBS AG Tier 1 bonds have quadrupled to 88 percent of face value from 22 cents in March, said Mann. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Some banks, including Barclays (LSE: BARC.L - news) , have also bought back or exchanged bombed-out subordinated bonds, often at premiums to market prices, to help repair battered balance sheets. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] This has boosted investor confidence and put a floor under the subordinated bond market. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] RISK APPETITE [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] The next stage is likely to be a rush of new issues, after banks including Standard Chartered Plc and Rabobank tested investors' risk appetite with such deals. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'There is increased confidence among investors towards Tier 1, but banks have to pay up to issue them,' said Eleonore Lamberty, credit analyst at ING. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] In May, Rabobank sold a 1 billion euro senior bond at a spread of 240 basis points over mid-swaps and a coupon of 5.875 percent. This compared to a coupon of 11 percent on a $1.5 billion Tier 1 bond sold later the same month. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'A lot of the capital raising will be in the Tier 1 universe because Tier 1 capital still provides the highest buffer against future losses,' Lamberty said. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] After the credit crisis nearly toppled the global banking system, regulators are keen for banks to bolster capital -- such as Tier 1 -- that can absorb losses. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Lamberty also said banks were eager to repay government funds that were injected at the Tier 1 level. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Investors, meanwhile, are ready to buy. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] In July, the best bond returns came from subordinated financials in euros, which produced total returns of 9.82 percent compared with 7.56 percent for the S&P 500 index, said Deutsche Bank (Xetra: 514000 - news) credit strategist Jim Reid. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] STRETCHING FOR YIELD [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] The rush into corporate credit has seen investors taking on more risk just to stay invested in the asset class in what looks like a return to pre-credit crisis behaviour. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'Not enough investment grade corporate bonds are readily available to meet demand,' said Lisa Coleman, head of global credit fixed income at JP Morgan Asset Management. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'The market has been driven by beta and this is seen in investors dipping down in credit quality,' Coleman said, referring to investors' hunger to boost yield or 'beta'. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Before the credit crisis, investors bought bank Tier 1 bonds when they were stretching for yield, she said. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Iain Baillie, head of fixed income at Christopher Street Capital, part of GFI Group, said: 'This was one area of the market where liquidity was most impaired at the end of last year ... But now new buyers have got involved.' [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Other issues have included insurers Prudential Plc (LSE: PRU.L - news) , RSA Insurance Group Plc and Legal & General Plc . [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'One of the key developments was that private banks were also willing to look at it,' said Adam, noting Asian private banks, in particular, had shown a lot of interest in Prudential's Tier 1 issue. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] (Additional reporting by Natalie Harrison and Jane Baird; Editing by David Holmes) [/SIZE]
European banks prepare subordinated debt comeback
[SIZE=+1]European banks prepare subordinated debt comeback[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] By Jane Merriman LONDON, Aug 5 (Reuters) - European banks are readying a return to the subordinated bond market to help repair their balance sheets, aided by an investor rush for fat returns on these high-risk securities. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] 'We have a number of mandates for new issues in the hybrid space,' said Thibaut Adam, head of capital markets structuring at BNP Paribas (Paris: FR0000131104 - news) . 'As the market is gradually reopening, issuers are keen to take their turn.' [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Prices for the riskiest subordinated bank bonds, known as Tier 1, fell off a cliff this year on fears banks, battered by the credit crisis, would not pay coupons or repay the bonds. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] There were no new issues of any subordinated bank bonds in the first four months of 2009. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Now the market has started to recover, with total European bank subordinated issuance in euros at 5.5 billion year-to-date. But this is down from 26 billion last year and 54 billion in 2007, according Societe General credit analyst Suki Mann. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] So far, few banks have actually skipped coupons or redemptions on these bonds, helping to spur a rally. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'My guess is banks will pay Tier 1 calls (redemptions) because they need to build goodwill among investors to rebuild capital via Tier 1 issuance,' said Simon Thorp, head of fixed income at asset manager Liontrust. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Barclays Plc Tier 1 bonds for instance, which sank as low as 10 cents in March, have since rallied to around 55 percent of face value, while UBS AG Tier 1 bonds have quadrupled to 88 percent of face value from 22 cents in March, said Mann. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Some banks, including Barclays (LSE: BARC.L - news) , have also bought back or exchanged bombed-out subordinated bonds, often at premiums to market prices, to help repair battered balance sheets. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] This has boosted investor confidence and put a floor under the subordinated bond market. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] RISK APPETITE [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] The next stage is likely to be a rush of new issues, after banks including Standard Chartered Plc and Rabobank tested investors' risk appetite with such deals. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'There is increased confidence among investors towards Tier 1, but banks have to pay up to issue them,' said Eleonore Lamberty, credit analyst at ING. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] In May, Rabobank sold a 1 billion euro senior bond at a spread of 240 basis points over mid-swaps and a coupon of 5.875 percent. This compared to a coupon of 11 percent on a $1.5 billion Tier 1 bond sold later the same month. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'A lot of the capital raising will be in the Tier 1 universe because Tier 1 capital still provides the highest buffer against future losses,' Lamberty said. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] After the credit crisis nearly toppled the global banking system, regulators are keen for banks to bolster capital -- such as Tier 1 -- that can absorb losses. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Lamberty also said banks were eager to repay government funds that were injected at the Tier 1 level. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Investors, meanwhile, are ready to buy. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] In July, the best bond returns came from subordinated financials in euros, which produced total returns of 9.82 percent compared with 7.56 percent for the S&P 500 index, said Deutsche Bank (Xetra: 514000 - news) credit strategist Jim Reid. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] STRETCHING FOR YIELD [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] The rush into corporate credit has seen investors taking on more risk just to stay invested in the asset class in what looks like a return to pre-credit crisis behaviour. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'Not enough investment grade corporate bonds are readily available to meet demand,' said Lisa Coleman, head of global credit fixed income at JP Morgan Asset Management. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'The market has been driven by beta and this is seen in investors dipping down in credit quality,' Coleman said, referring to investors' hunger to boost yield or 'beta'. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Before the credit crisis, investors bought bank Tier 1 bonds when they were stretching for yield, she said. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Iain Baillie, head of fixed income at Christopher Street Capital, part of GFI Group, said: 'This was one area of the market where liquidity was most impaired at the end of last year ... But now new buyers have got involved.' [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] Other issues have included insurers Prudential Plc (LSE: PRU.L - news) , RSA Insurance Group Plc and Legal & General Plc . [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] 'One of the key developments was that private banks were also willing to look at it,' said Adam, noting Asian private banks, in particular, had shown a lot of interest in Prudential's Tier 1 issue. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] (Additional reporting by Natalie Harrison and Jane Baird; Editing by David Holmes) [/SIZE]
negusneg
New Member
E' evidente che la decisione di Dexia e Ing di esercitare la call su alcune subordinate non è piaciuta.
Nel mirino, infatti, non è solo il pagamento delle cedole ma anche la facoltà di rimborsare anticipatamente le emissioni.
Fra le olandesi se ne salvano poche, forse solo Rabobank, e anche fra le tedesche ne manca qualcuna nel tuo elenco, a cominciare da Commerzbank.
reef
...
Già, Commerzbank l'avevo già messa nella mia personale "lista nera" e me ne sono dimenticato.
ING invece mi interessa parecchio per ovvii motivi. L'impressione è che il gioco valga la candela, ovviamente con l'ombrello della cedola cumulativa.
Dalle comunicazioni EU sembra fondamentale la capacità della banca di creare plusvalenza. Questo andrebbe contro il principio degli aiuti statali che, al contrario, dovrebbero essere concentrati sull'emissione di credito alle imprese.
Zorba
Bos 4 Mod
Le cedole delle banche che fanno utili o che sono cumulative dovrebbero essere salve; alla peggio le cumultative verrebbero differite.
Quello che mi preoccupa sono i concetti di "burden sharing" e "sufficient profits". Farei un paio di considerazioni:
1) le banche che hanno già ricevuto gli aiuti dal governo, che non hanno bisogno di nuovi aiuti e che sono in utile: se la situazione si stabilizza (come sembra), difficilmente l' "editto" della commissione avrà effetti significativi. Al limite qualche call/cedola differita. Ormai gli aiuti sono stati dati, le perdite già assorbite dallo Stato, per cui la Commissione interviene quando i buoi sono già scappati. Poi l'analisi va fatta ovviamente caso x caso...
2) le banche che hanno già ricevuto gli aiuti dal governo, che non hanno bisogno di nuovi aiuti ma che sono in perdita: qui la Commissione ha qualche arma in più. Può intervenire sulla cancellazione delle cedole non cumulative e il non esercizio delle call. Secondo me Dexia rientra proprio in questo caso, perchè - anche se ha chiuso il primo semestre 2009 in utile - aveva cmq chiuso il 2008 con una perdita monstre, che di fatto non aveva minimamente colpito i bond-holder... (ricordate, la commissione censura il fatto che le società abbiano coperto le perdite con le riserve di patrimonio netto...)
3) le banche che hanno già ricevuto gli aiuti dal governo e che ne hanno bisogno di nuovi: secondo me qui sono dolori, perchè IMHO la Commissione potrebbe imporre a questi soggetti di rispettare in toto la comunicazione, che prevede un po' di pillole avvelenate (tra cui il non pagamento di cedole e call varie, il fatto di dover riportare a nuovo le perdite, eventuali hair cut sul nominale dei bond se previsti, etc...).
Sono solo prime considerazioni scritte a caldo. Credo che Negus e Sole possano essere ben più esaustivi.
Tobia
Forumer storico
Buon giorno a tutti. E' da un pezzo che vi seguo e finalmente ho trovato il coraggio per iscrivermi.
complimentoni a tutti per l'otima preparazione!
Vi doxmando:
voi in che percentuale avete di perpetue in portafoglio?
io il 10% suddivise fra:
BP milano, Antonveneta, BP lodi e BP di Bergamo.
complimentoni a tutti per l'otima preparazione!
Vi doxmando:
voi in che percentuale avete di perpetue in portafoglio?
io il 10% suddivise fra:
BP milano, Antonveneta, BP lodi e BP di Bergamo.
reef
...
Grazie, intervento interessantissimo per tutti gli "aficionados"
Anzitutto benvenuto!
La domanda che fai è strana... Non riguarda qualche aspetto specifico ma come ciascuno di noi vede l'investimento in questo strumento. Le risposte potrebbero essere varie: non più del 5%, il 20%, il 90%. Francamente non capisco cosa ti possa servire questa informazione. Puoi essere più specifico?
- Stato