Topgun1976
Guest
Ciao la Bnp l 'ho in portafoglio,l 'emittente è ottima,poi come tutte le P è colata a picco,è una non cumulative quindi o paga o salta,non differisce la cedola.
Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (5 lettori)
- Creatore Discussione negusneg
- Data di Inizio
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- Tags
- additional tier 1 bail in basilea 3 coco bonds crd iv genussscheine grandfathering hybrid bond loss absorption lower tier 2 make whole amount matusalem bond obbligazioni irredimibili obbligazioni perpetue obbligazioni subordinate perpetual bond preference shares restricted tier 1 tier 1 upper tier 2
- Stato
Ciao la Bnp l 'ho in portafoglio,l 'emittente è ottima,poi come tutte le P è colata a picco,è una non cumulative quindi o paga o salta,non differisce la cedola.
Topgun1976
Guest
L' unica cosa che non riesco a capire sui perpetuals è il perchè scendano tutti,di tutte le emittenti da ormai 6 mesi ininterrottamente.Ora ok che siamo nel mezzo di una crisi,ma è allucinante la discesa dei titoli,tanto che ogni giorno vorrei fare spesa ma ogni giorno mi dico domani costeranno meno.Voglioi vedere fino a dove si spingono sotto i 20 di prezzo entrerò pesante,anche a costo di non vedere nulla x 3 anni,ma non è possibile che tutto e tutti siano diventati carta straccia in 6 mesi
maxinblack
Forumer storico
Non mi spiego certi disallineamenti di prezzo su perpetual anche della stessa emittente, o dello stesso gruppo ( tipo bancario, assicurativo, etc )
Scusate se forse dico una cosa ovvia, ma e' possibile che le buona parte delle perpetual che quotano al di sotto del 40% contengano nella "offering circular" clausole che fanno saltare la cedola, o che addirittura possano intaccare il capitale?i Sembra che pochi di noi abbiano spulciato a fondo le offering circular di tutte le perpetual di cui parliamo, e allora se il "mercato ha sempre ragione" cosa che non sempre credo, e' possibile che le perpetual a prezzo piu' basso nascondano questa insidia?
Scusate se forse dico una cosa ovvia, ma e' possibile che le buona parte delle perpetual che quotano al di sotto del 40% contengano nella "offering circular" clausole che fanno saltare la cedola, o che addirittura possano intaccare il capitale?i Sembra che pochi di noi abbiano spulciato a fondo le offering circular di tutte le perpetual di cui parliamo, e allora se il "mercato ha sempre ragione" cosa che non sempre credo, e' possibile che le perpetual a prezzo piu' basso nascondano questa insidia?
Imark
Forumer storico
Quelle a prezzo più basso nascondono talvolta meccanismi di loss absorption, ossia che aprono la strada ad una partecipazione ad eventuali perdite di esercizio della banca garante (l'emittente è di solito società veicolo) oltre a prevedere i meccanismi di deferral(cancellazione/sospensione delle cedole) circostanza che per un perpetual è abbastanza normale.
kuka
Nuovo forumer
ho una domanda per voi, mi potete aiutare?
ho obbligazioni RABOBANK xs0214155458
il 23.03.09 scade la cedola
le condizioni da contratto delle obbligazioni sono le seguenti:
cedola del 7% fino al 23.03.08 poi
4 x (irs 10 anni - irs 2 anni) con un minimo di 2% e max di 9%
la banca mi dice che il 23.03 mi pagheranno il 2% perchè il calcolo è fatto alla data del 23.03.08
le condizioni dicono:
che la tariffa è calcolata 2 gg lavorativi prima del Coupon Calculation Period
è corretto quello che mi dice la banca???????
per il 23.03.10 mi dice che siccome il calcolo è fatto alla data del 23.03.09
per il proximo anno la cedola sarà 6% circa
è giusto??
un immenso grazie a chi mi potrà aiutare
un saluto a tutti!
ho obbligazioni RABOBANK xs0214155458
il 23.03.09 scade la cedola
le condizioni da contratto delle obbligazioni sono le seguenti:
cedola del 7% fino al 23.03.08 poi
4 x (irs 10 anni - irs 2 anni) con un minimo di 2% e max di 9%
la banca mi dice che il 23.03 mi pagheranno il 2% perchè il calcolo è fatto alla data del 23.03.08
le condizioni dicono:
che la tariffa è calcolata 2 gg lavorativi prima del Coupon Calculation Period
è corretto quello che mi dice la banca???????
per il 23.03.10 mi dice che siccome il calcolo è fatto alla data del 23.03.09
per il proximo anno la cedola sarà 6% circa
è giusto??
un immenso grazie a chi mi potrà aiutare
un saluto a tutti!
Ultima modifica:
Imark
Forumer storico
Altra situazione che incide negativamente sulle sorti dei titolari di bond perpetual o UT2 è quella che vede uno Stato convertire le proprie preferred shares in una banca che si è giovata dell'iniezione di capitale pubblico in azioni ordinarie.
Una tale situazione si traduce in un rischio accresciuto del deferral sulle cedole dei Tier 1 e dei UT2 non solo in quanto evidenzia una accresciuta esigenza di valersi di tale strumento onde recuperare flessibilità finanziaria in capo alla banca salvata, ma anche in virtù una più elevata probabilità che gli investitori privati siano equiparati al trattamento riservato allo Stato investitore.
La situazione degli emittenti del Lloyds Banking Group nella disamina di Fitch. L'acquisto di HBOS ha scardinato i conti di una delle poche banche britanniche prima solide, rendendone necessaria l'attuale nazionalizzazione de facto.
Fitch Affirms Lloyds Banking Group at 'AA-'; Downgrades Individual Rating and Hybrid Capital Debt
09 Mar 2009 2:10 PM (EDT)
Fitch Ratings-London/New York-09 March 2009: Fitch Ratings has today affirmed the Lloyds Banking Group plc (LBG) and its subsidiaries, Lloyds TSB Bank plc (LTSB), HBOS plc and Bank of Scotland plc (BOS), at Long-term Issuer Default (IDR) 'AA-' (AA minus) and Short-term IDR 'F1+' respectively.
This action follows the announcement of LBG's participation in the UK government's asset protection scheme (APS) and the conversion of GBP4bn preference shares issued to H.M Treasury in October 2008 into ordinary equity.
The IDR affirmations reflect Fitch's view that while significant near-term challenges remain, the risks are mitigated by continued very strong support for LBG from the UK authorities. The IDR Outlooks remain Stable.
Fitch has also downgraded LBG's, LTSB's and BOS's Individual ratings to 'E' from 'C/D', 'B/C' and 'C/D' respectively and removed them from Rating Watch Negative, reflecting the significant deterioration in certain asset portfolios over recent months that has necessitated the additional support measures announced over the weekend.
The acquisition of HBOS plc by Lloyds TSB Group plc, which was announced in September 2008, may prove over the longer-term to generate material strategic benefits for the smaller acquirer, but in Fitch's opinion the short-term consequences have been severe.
Following the preference share conversion, LBG will be 65%-owned by the UK government (assuming no take-up by existing shareholders) and this figure would rise to 77% assuming the government exercised an option to convert the GBP15.6bn 'B' shares issued to the UK government as the fee for participation in the APS.
Of the GBP260bn assets and exposures that will be transferred into the APS, 83% were HBOS originations and reflected HBOS's huge exposure to elements of the UK economy that have deteriorated rapidly, such as the property investment, development, house building and leveraged buyout sectors as well as parts of its retail mortgage portfolio.
The future direction of the group's Individual ratings will depend on the pace and severity of continued operating environment pressure, together with the group's success in transitioning the former HBOS businesses to a lower risk footing as well as reshaping the enlarged group's liability base to reduce its vulnerability to short-term funding markets in a 'post-guarantee' funding environment.
Upon completion of the APS transaction LBG's core Tier 1 capital ratio will increase sharply to around 14.5%, leaving it well-equipped to meet the mortgage and small business lending targets agreed with the UK government. Fitch has downgraded the preference shares issued by LBG, LTSB and BOS to 'BB-' (BB minus) from 'BB', and has also downgraded upper tier 2 subordinated debt instruments issued by group entities to 'BB' from 'A+'.
These downgrades reflect the agency's view that deferral risk has increased significantly for banks that are in receipt of substantial public funds.
This risk is heightened by the recognition that there is significant capital and financial flexibility to be retained by deferring on such instruments and that the replacement of government preference shares with common equity may result in a significantly elevated risk that market investors in the group's hybrid capital could be expected to share this burden with the UK taxpayer.
All rated preference shares and upper tier 2 instruments remain on Rating Watch Negative to reflect this continued uncertainty.
The upper tier 2 instruments have been rated one notch higher than preference shares at 'BB' to reflect their higher recovery prospects.
Today's rating action has no impact on the rating of the residential mortgage covered bonds issued by LTSB, BOS and Bank of Scotland Intelligent Finance, all of which are rated 'AAA'.
Una tale situazione si traduce in un rischio accresciuto del deferral sulle cedole dei Tier 1 e dei UT2 non solo in quanto evidenzia una accresciuta esigenza di valersi di tale strumento onde recuperare flessibilità finanziaria in capo alla banca salvata, ma anche in virtù una più elevata probabilità che gli investitori privati siano equiparati al trattamento riservato allo Stato investitore.
La situazione degli emittenti del Lloyds Banking Group nella disamina di Fitch. L'acquisto di HBOS ha scardinato i conti di una delle poche banche britanniche prima solide, rendendone necessaria l'attuale nazionalizzazione de facto.
Fitch Affirms Lloyds Banking Group at 'AA-'; Downgrades Individual Rating and Hybrid Capital Debt
09 Mar 2009 2:10 PM (EDT)
Fitch Ratings-London/New York-09 March 2009: Fitch Ratings has today affirmed the Lloyds Banking Group plc (LBG) and its subsidiaries, Lloyds TSB Bank plc (LTSB), HBOS plc and Bank of Scotland plc (BOS), at Long-term Issuer Default (IDR) 'AA-' (AA minus) and Short-term IDR 'F1+' respectively.
This action follows the announcement of LBG's participation in the UK government's asset protection scheme (APS) and the conversion of GBP4bn preference shares issued to H.M Treasury in October 2008 into ordinary equity.
The IDR affirmations reflect Fitch's view that while significant near-term challenges remain, the risks are mitigated by continued very strong support for LBG from the UK authorities. The IDR Outlooks remain Stable.
Fitch has also downgraded LBG's, LTSB's and BOS's Individual ratings to 'E' from 'C/D', 'B/C' and 'C/D' respectively and removed them from Rating Watch Negative, reflecting the significant deterioration in certain asset portfolios over recent months that has necessitated the additional support measures announced over the weekend.
The acquisition of HBOS plc by Lloyds TSB Group plc, which was announced in September 2008, may prove over the longer-term to generate material strategic benefits for the smaller acquirer, but in Fitch's opinion the short-term consequences have been severe.
Following the preference share conversion, LBG will be 65%-owned by the UK government (assuming no take-up by existing shareholders) and this figure would rise to 77% assuming the government exercised an option to convert the GBP15.6bn 'B' shares issued to the UK government as the fee for participation in the APS.
Of the GBP260bn assets and exposures that will be transferred into the APS, 83% were HBOS originations and reflected HBOS's huge exposure to elements of the UK economy that have deteriorated rapidly, such as the property investment, development, house building and leveraged buyout sectors as well as parts of its retail mortgage portfolio.
The future direction of the group's Individual ratings will depend on the pace and severity of continued operating environment pressure, together with the group's success in transitioning the former HBOS businesses to a lower risk footing as well as reshaping the enlarged group's liability base to reduce its vulnerability to short-term funding markets in a 'post-guarantee' funding environment.
Upon completion of the APS transaction LBG's core Tier 1 capital ratio will increase sharply to around 14.5%, leaving it well-equipped to meet the mortgage and small business lending targets agreed with the UK government. Fitch has downgraded the preference shares issued by LBG, LTSB and BOS to 'BB-' (BB minus) from 'BB', and has also downgraded upper tier 2 subordinated debt instruments issued by group entities to 'BB' from 'A+'.
These downgrades reflect the agency's view that deferral risk has increased significantly for banks that are in receipt of substantial public funds.
This risk is heightened by the recognition that there is significant capital and financial flexibility to be retained by deferring on such instruments and that the replacement of government preference shares with common equity may result in a significantly elevated risk that market investors in the group's hybrid capital could be expected to share this burden with the UK taxpayer.
All rated preference shares and upper tier 2 instruments remain on Rating Watch Negative to reflect this continued uncertainty.
The upper tier 2 instruments have been rated one notch higher than preference shares at 'BB' to reflect their higher recovery prospects.
Today's rating action has no impact on the rating of the residential mortgage covered bonds issued by LTSB, BOS and Bank of Scotland Intelligent Finance, all of which are rated 'AAA'.
negusneg
New Member
La clausola di loss absorption permette di sospendere il pagamento delle cedole o di rimborsare parzialmente il capitale in caso di perdite tali da fare scendere i requisiti patrimoniali della banca al di sotto di una certa soglia.
I casi finora conosciuti non sono molti.
In Irlanda, dove lo stato ha praticamente nazionalizzato le principali banche, finora solo una emissione di Anglo Irish Bank è stata di fatto espropriata dallo stato. I posessori riceveranno una compensazione, probabilmente molto inferiore al valore nominale, però era più un'emissione di azioni privilegiate (preference shares) con diritto di voto che di obbligazioni perpetue. Le altre perpetue infatti sono ancora in essere e fino ad ora hanno pagato le cedole.
Negli Usa Fannie Mae e Freddie Mac hanno sospeso i pagamenti su un totale di 38 emissioni.
In GB Northern Rock è stata nazionalizzata e ha sospeso il pagamento delle cedole, ma i detentori di obbligazioni perpetue per ora non hanno ricevuto alcuna compensazione.
negusneg
New Member
Ciao kuka, sostanzialmente direi di sì.
Un anno fa la differenza fra IRS 10a e IRS 2a era molto bassa, mentre ora viaggia su 1,4-1,5%.
La prossima cedola, se non ci saranno forti variazioni nei prossimi giorni, dovrebbe stare fra il 5,5% ed il 6%.
negusneg
New Member
Questa ci era sfuggita 
Citigroup ha sospeso il pagamento di alcune sue "preferred shares" dopo l'ultimo intervento del governo.
Shabby treatment
Preferred stock preferred no more
Who put the 'end' in 'dividend'? Citi, and other banks may follow suit.
By Karen Brettell
March 5, 2009 12:01 AM ET
(Reuters)
Citigroup’s decision to halt dividend payments on some of its preferred shares may be the final blow for certain bank preferred stocks and may further dry up the willingness of private investors to buy other bank securities.
The government recently boosted its equity stake in Citigroup to as much as 36% and the bank said it will suspend dividends on some preferred and common stock and convert up to $25 billion in preferred shares to common stock as part of the agreement.
“While the dividend suspension was largely priced into current spreads, the announcement is a watershed event,” and will likely dry up the ability to sell similar securities in the primary market, said Ricardo Kleinbaum, trading sector specialist at BNP Paribas in New York.
Investors will be concerned that the government may intervene in other banks, such as Bank of America and Wells Fargo, which have borrowed from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and this will have a similarly negative impact on these types of preferred shares, he said.
Citigroup’s dividend suspension affected its traditional preferred shares, but the bank will continue to pay dividends on its trust preferred shares, which rose on the announcement.
Credit ratings on the negatively affected Citigroup preferred securities were slashed to levels only slightly above default by all three major rating agencies.
“We believe there is a risk that Citi’s future access to the capital markets could be impaired by this action,” Standard & Poor’s said in a statement.
“More broadly, we are also concerned that Citi’s action could mark a tipping point for the financial institutions sector, and serve as a visible precedent for other companies considering a similar course of action,” the rating agency added.
The intervention may also set a precedent for international banks to follow, said BNP’s Kleinbaum.
“The Citi action opens the door for governments to look to preferred investors to sacrifice dividends in order to share losses,” he said. “Thus, it would seem that institutions with higher government ownership are more vulnerable.”
When Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were nationalized last year their preferred shares lost almost all of their value.
Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings also both cut American International Group’s trust preferred shares and subordinated debt into junk territory last week.
AIG was given access to up to $30 billion of capital in a new government bailout on Monday, at the same time as the insurer posted a record $61.7 billion quarterly loss.
Bank subordinated debt has also come under pressure as investors worry that payments on the bonds, which sit above a company’s preferred shares but below its senior debt, may also be halted if bank liquidity woes persist.
The potential for the government to make loans to a company that is more senior to its other existing debt is also weighing on investors minds.
“The concern right now on banks is capital structure related,” said John Atkins, credit analyst at IDEAglobal in New York. “I think everybody is worried about getting bumped down the food chain in a recovery event.”
As investors take fresh losses to bank securities, financial companies are increasingly at the mercy of government programs for their funding.
Banks are able to sell bonds guaranteed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp (FDIC) as part of the Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP).
“The only way banks can continue to roll debt maturities is through the FDIC program,” Atkins said.
Citigroup ha sospeso il pagamento di alcune sue "preferred shares" dopo l'ultimo intervento del governo.
Shabby treatment
Preferred stock preferred no more
Who put the 'end' in 'dividend'? Citi, and other banks may follow suit.
By Karen Brettell
March 5, 2009 12:01 AM ET
(Reuters)
Citigroup’s decision to halt dividend payments on some of its preferred shares may be the final blow for certain bank preferred stocks and may further dry up the willingness of private investors to buy other bank securities.
The government recently boosted its equity stake in Citigroup to as much as 36% and the bank said it will suspend dividends on some preferred and common stock and convert up to $25 billion in preferred shares to common stock as part of the agreement.
“While the dividend suspension was largely priced into current spreads, the announcement is a watershed event,” and will likely dry up the ability to sell similar securities in the primary market, said Ricardo Kleinbaum, trading sector specialist at BNP Paribas in New York.
Investors will be concerned that the government may intervene in other banks, such as Bank of America and Wells Fargo, which have borrowed from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and this will have a similarly negative impact on these types of preferred shares, he said.
Citigroup’s dividend suspension affected its traditional preferred shares, but the bank will continue to pay dividends on its trust preferred shares, which rose on the announcement.
Credit ratings on the negatively affected Citigroup preferred securities were slashed to levels only slightly above default by all three major rating agencies.
“We believe there is a risk that Citi’s future access to the capital markets could be impaired by this action,” Standard & Poor’s said in a statement.
“More broadly, we are also concerned that Citi’s action could mark a tipping point for the financial institutions sector, and serve as a visible precedent for other companies considering a similar course of action,” the rating agency added.
The intervention may also set a precedent for international banks to follow, said BNP’s Kleinbaum.
“The Citi action opens the door for governments to look to preferred investors to sacrifice dividends in order to share losses,” he said. “Thus, it would seem that institutions with higher government ownership are more vulnerable.”
When Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were nationalized last year their preferred shares lost almost all of their value.
Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings also both cut American International Group’s trust preferred shares and subordinated debt into junk territory last week.
AIG was given access to up to $30 billion of capital in a new government bailout on Monday, at the same time as the insurer posted a record $61.7 billion quarterly loss.
Bank subordinated debt has also come under pressure as investors worry that payments on the bonds, which sit above a company’s preferred shares but below its senior debt, may also be halted if bank liquidity woes persist.
The potential for the government to make loans to a company that is more senior to its other existing debt is also weighing on investors minds.
“The concern right now on banks is capital structure related,” said John Atkins, credit analyst at IDEAglobal in New York. “I think everybody is worried about getting bumped down the food chain in a recovery event.”
As investors take fresh losses to bank securities, financial companies are increasingly at the mercy of government programs for their funding.
Banks are able to sell bonds guaranteed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp (FDIC) as part of the Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (TLGP).
“The only way banks can continue to roll debt maturities is through the FDIC program,” Atkins said.
negusneg
New Member
A questo link trovate le chiusure delle preferred securities quotate negli Usa:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3024-Preferreds.html
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3024-Preferreds.html
- Stato