Obbligazioni perpetue e subordinate Tutto quello che avreste sempre voluto sapere sulle obbligazioni perpetue... - Cap. 1 (4 lettori)

[Wallygo]

ciao young! bè se ho capito bene non è poi così male al limite non pagano una cedola ma poi tutte le altre sono obbligati a pagarle ( sia pure in ritardo) ....vero o falso???

 

[Topgun1976]

ciao young! bè se ho capito bene non è poi così male al limite non pagano una cedola ma poi tutte le altre sono obbligati a pagarle ( sia pure in ritardo) ....vero o falso???

Si ma quelle non pagate sono perse

 

[Wallygo]

Si ma quelle non pagate sono perse

ciao Top sì ma non ne possono pagare UNA e basta non 2 o 3 di fila....

 

[DinoP]

Approximately $450 Billion of hybrid and subordinated debt affected

New York, November 18, 2009 -- Moody's Investors Service has placed under review for possible downgrade the ratings of 775 hybrid and subordinated debt securities issued by 170 bank families in 36 countries following a change to its rating methodology for these instruments. A detailed list of ratings affected is available on the company's website at http://v3.moodys.com/page/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBC_121275.

The reviews follow the rating agency's announcement that it has changed the way in which it rates these securities to take into account the fact that some recent government interventions in troubled banks have not helped, and have even been to the detriment of, the holders of these types of securities. For example, in some cases, support packages have been contingent upon a bank's suspension of coupon payments on these instruments as a means to preserve capital.

Prior to the crisis, Moody's had incorporated into its ratings an assumption that support provided by national governments and central banks to shore up a troubled bank would, to some extent, benefit the subordinated debt holders as well as senior creditors.

The new methodology also better captures the potential for losses that can occur in restructurings outside liquidation, such as through coupon suspension, principal write-downs, good bank/bad bank structures, and distressed exchanges. These risks can be exacerbated by the hybrid's features. Therefore, the review of individual securities will take into account various structural features of the instruments. These include whether or not coupon payments can be skipped and under what circumstances, and whether such missed payments are cumulative or non-cumulative.

Moody's anticipates that 40% of the potentially affected hybrid ratings could be lowered by one to two notches, 50% could be lowered three to four notches, and the remainder could be lowered by five or more notches.

As the likely extent and form of government support -- or intervention— is an important part of the analysis, the reviews will incorporate policy differences between countries and the relationships of individual banks with the government. While it is clear that governments and regulators, to the extent contractually and legally possible, may support coupon skips and/or principal write-downs for hybrids issued by troubled banks, the timing of such actions is uncertain, depending on country-specific considerations.
As a result, ratings on one class of securities, junior subordinated debt, are likely to continue to benefit from the uplift of government support -- at least in the near term. This is especially the case for banks in countries such as Japan, where a previous banking crisis has led to a well-defined resolution process and where junior subordinated debt has been supported during a time of financial distress. It is also the case in certain emerging markets, where banks are an important part of the economic development of the country and therefore likely to benefit from high levels of government support.

For banks in the countries or regions particularly hard hit by the crisis, which have enjoyed extraordinary levels of support, we expect junior subordinated debt ratings to be anchored closer to the intrinsic financial strength of the bank as government support gradually diminishes.
The rating agency expects to complete the reviews of individual ratings over the next three months and will announce the outcome of each review as it is completed. Banks with ratings already under review may be excluded from this review, and the changes to their hybrid ratings will be made at the same time the reviews on their other ratings are resolved.

"Moody's Guidelines for Rating Bank Hybrid Securities and Subordinated Debt" is available on moodys.com. In conjunction with the new methodology, the rating agency has also published a Frequently Asked Questions to address some of the issues that were raised during the comment period.

Moody's will be holding teleconferences about the methodology on Thursday 19 November at 12pm Hong Kong/ 1pm Tokyo/ 3pm Sydney time for the Asian markets and at 10am EST/ 3pm GMT for the Americas and Europe. For more information or to register, go to www.moodys.com/events.

questo significa che per chi perderà l'IG ci saranno storni nei prezzi dovuti al fatto che molti fondi, ecc dovranno vendere.
diventeranno delle opportunità di acquisto?

 

[Metriko]

Su Eureko x Metriko

Ti ha detto già tutto Sole,anche se non ho + seguito il 3 trim,cmq il fatto che Rabo ha il 40% è già di fatto una garanzia,infatti le sue P sono piuttosto caruccie.



Vabbe' ma come si dice " la robba bona si paga "

no scherzi a parte volevo avere anche una tua opinione riguardo alla eureko che da &% di cedola e quota 80 con call 2012 Non mi sembra malvagia.
Non è molto speculativa è un po costosa pero' unisce una buona solidita' con una discreta rendita e ancora un po di margine di rivalutazione .

Interessante anche quello che hai postato a proposito dello Grecia , io ho un bond della grecia che effettivamente a quasi perso 2 punti pero' potrebbe essere occasione per ricomprare .... in ogni caso lo tengo sotto stretta sorveglianza

 

[Topgun1976]

Su Eureko x Metriko

Ti ha detto già tutto Sole,anche se non ho + seguito il 3 trim,cmq il fatto che Rabo ha il 40% è già di fatto una garanzia,infatti le sue P sono piuttosto caruccie.



Vabbe' ma come si dice " la robba bona si paga "

no scherzi a parte volevo avere anche una tua opinione riguardo alla eureko che da &% di cedola e quota 80 con call 2012 Non mi sembra malvagia.
Non è molto speculativa è un po costosa pero' unisce una buona solidita' con una discreta rendita e ancora un po di margine di rivalutazione .

Interessante anche quello che hai postato a proposito dello Grecia , io ho un bond della grecia che effettivamente a quasi perso 2 punti pero' potrebbe essere occasione per ricomprare .... in ogni caso lo tengo sotto stretta sorveglianza

Su Eureko l 'ho tenuta in considerazione 2 mesi fà,quindi leggiti bene i Pdf prima di Eventualmente Comprarla,Cmq all 'epoca era cara e ho virato su altro,magari in questi giorni chiedo i prezzi e valuto l 'acquisto

Sulla Grecia,devo dire che non credo ad un Default,certo che sono messi Malino

 

[solenoide]

Azz Mi sono Venuti dei Dubbi pure Sulla 127 Visto che Moody's la tratta come Pref Stock e non Come Junior Sub

non mi sembra , il prospetto e' diverso , il caso peggiore e' questo :

4. Deferrals​

The Issuer must make each Coupon Payment on the relevant Coupon Payment Date subject to and
in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. However, subject to Condition 4(c), the Issuer may defer a
Coupon Payment and any other Payment in the following circumstances:
(a)​

​

​

​

Required Deferral of Payments​

(i) Subject to Condition 4(c) and subject to the Issuer not becoming subject to capital adequacy
regulations as applied and enforced by the Dutch Central Bank or any appropriate regulator,
if, on the 20th Business Day preceding the date on which any Payment would, in the absence of
deferral in accordance with this Condition 4, be due and payable, the Required Deferral
Condition is met, any such Payment must (subject to Condition 6) be deferred by the Issuer
giving notice (a ‘Deferral Notice’) to the Trustee, the Holders, the Principal Paying Agent and
the Calculation Agent not less than 16 Business Days prior to such date.
Subject to Condition 4(c), if, following the deferral of a Payment by the Issuer under this
Condition 4(a)(i), the Required Deferral Condition is no longer met on the 20th Business
Day preceding a Coupon Payment Date, then the Issuer shall satisfy such Payment on the
relevant Deferred Coupon Satisfaction Date having given, not less than 16 Business Days
prior to the Deferred Coupon Satisfaction Date, notice to the Trustee, the Holders and the
Calculation Agent that it will satisfy such Payment on such date.
(ii) The Issuer shall not satisfy such Payment on the relevant Deferred Coupon Satisfaction
Date referred to in Condition 4(a)(i) above, if:
(1) it has previously elected to satisfy such Payment earlier (provided that, at the time of
satisfying such payment,the Required Deferral Condition fails to be met) by delivering
a notice to the Trustee, the Holders, the Principal Paying Agent and the Calculation
Agent not less than 16 Business Days prior to the relevant Deferred Coupon
Satisfaction Date that it will satisfy such Payment on such date; or
(2) it validly elects to defer under Condition 4(b) the Payment which would otherwise have
been satisfied under Condition 4(a)(i).
(iii) If any Payment is deferred pursuant to this Condition 4(a) then no amount will be
payable by way of interest on any such deferred Payment, save as provided in
Condition 6(e).
Any such deferred Payment shall be satisfied by means (and, unless the prior consent of the
relevant regulator obtained, only by means) of the issue of Ordinary Shares in accordance with​

Condition 6.

 

[solenoide]

Solenoide, illuminami!!!

ciao,
ho postato una mezza cavolata.
Quella clausola al 99% ha valore solo in relazione ai perpetual ING Verzekeringen (non so nemmeno se ce ne sono in circolazione).
Comunque come ho gia' scritto per chi vuole un cedolone dal gruppo ING a mio parere meglio queste due che la ING 8% Tier 1

In particolare rispetto a ING 8 % : non c'e' mandatory deferral ma solo optional.
In caso di optional deferral le cedole devono essere ripagate ed intanto generano a loro volta interessi.
Fino a quando ci sono cedole non pagate ING Verzekeringen non puo' pagare cedole su titoli piu' subordinati e tantomeno richiamarli

 

[Wallygo]

ciao sole! cosa ne pensi della in 8% può cancellare UNA cedola soltanto e tutte le altre diventano cumulative?

 

[Topgun1976]

non mi sembra , il prospetto e' diverso , il caso peggiore e' questo :

4. Deferrals​

The Issuer must make each Coupon Payment on the relevant Coupon Payment Date subject to and
in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. However, subject to Condition 4(c), the Issuer may defer a
Coupon Payment and any other Payment in the following circumstances:
(a)​

Required Deferral of Payments​

(i) Subject to Condition 4(c) and subject to the Issuer not becoming subject to capital adequacy
regulations as applied and enforced by the Dutch Central Bank or any appropriate regulator,
if, on the 20th Business Day preceding the date on which any Payment would, in the absence of
deferral in accordance with this Condition 4, be due and payable, the Required Deferral
Condition is met, any such Payment must (subject to Condition 6) be deferred by the Issuer
giving notice (a ‘Deferral Notice’) to the Trustee, the Holders, the Principal Paying Agent and
the Calculation Agent not less than 16 Business Days prior to such date.
Subject to Condition 4(c), if, following the deferral of a Payment by the Issuer under this
Condition 4(a)(i), the Required Deferral Condition is no longer met on the 20th Business
Day preceding a Coupon Payment Date, then the Issuer shall satisfy such Payment on the
relevant Deferred Coupon Satisfaction Date having given, not less than 16 Business Days
prior to the Deferred Coupon Satisfaction Date, notice to the Trustee, the Holders and the
Calculation Agent that it will satisfy such Payment on such date.
(ii) The Issuer shall not satisfy such Payment on the relevant Deferred Coupon Satisfaction
Date referred to in Condition 4(a)(i) above, if:
(1) it has previously elected to satisfy such Payment earlier (provided that, at the time of
satisfying such payment,the Required Deferral Condition fails to be met) by delivering
a notice to the Trustee, the Holders, the Principal Paying Agent and the Calculation
Agent not less than 16 Business Days prior to the relevant Deferred Coupon
Satisfaction Date that it will satisfy such Payment on such date; or
(2) it validly elects to defer under Condition 4(b) the Payment which would otherwise have
been satisfied under Condition 4(a)(i).
(iii) If any Payment is deferred pursuant to this Condition 4(a) then no amount will be
payable by way of interest on any such deferred Payment, save as provided in
Condition 6(e).
Any such deferred Payment shall be satisfied by means (and, unless the prior consent of the
relevant regulator obtained, only by means) of the issue of Ordinary Shares in accordance with​

Condition 6.

Grazie Fabio,ma Come Mai Moody's non la Bolla Come Junior Sub?